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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 3:25:42 GMT
Different cultures, at all times, had bigger and smaller blades for different applications fighting styles. Some swords got very long in places with full plate armor, but stayed rather short in places without. Daggers were sometimes very thin, triangular, or even cylindrical in cross-section at the same time in the same place because different people felt the design worked better. Some blades are curved, some blades are straight, some blades curve the other way. Depends who's using it and how they use it, to determine which is better, really. The basic matchup concept (both modern and relevant), though, is two lightly clothed dudes staring at each other from across a level road, with one armed with a light 6" blade and the other a bowie/short sword featuring a foot long blade.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 3:34:30 GMT
Scholagladiatoria would probably scoff, but beefy spadroons are fine by me. I think the post talked earlier about the fallacy of all bowies being equal, meaning people were lumping small clip points (and calling them bowies) with the larger, traditional fighters (those Windlass your pointing out) that were used mainly for utility in early/mid 19th century America, before Colt and friends "stabilized" the revolver/handgun. The simple CS Cutlass machete (I hate to admit, as I love the bowie) would be superior to any bowie, but now your getting into carry/conceal issues...where the bowie shines (if you have the resolve/legal ability to carry such a beast). I am still somewhat bemused with your understanding of history and utility. Going way back in the thread you bring up concealed wear "The simple CS Cutlass machete (I hate to admit, as I love the bowie) would be superior to any bowie, but now your getting into carry/conceal issues...where the bowie shines (if you have the resolve/legal ability to carry such a beast)." True I did mention size as a matter of comfortable carry/wear. Correct me if I'm wrong but you are jumping to the conclusion I meant for concealed wear. Concealed or not, a big lump on my hip, hanging in a baldric or shoulder, or small of the back, or boot; non of these would make me happy to wear. In a Wellington boot or the small of my back is where I used to wear a fixed blade for years in 1980s Boston/Cambridge, yes with a six inch blade But let's just get back to short swords and moderately sized knives. Then consider the word Bowie as ambiguous. Bowie was a family name It is a label that means different things to different people. Don't get hung up about the use of Bowie on shorter blades because those smaller knives were indeed regarded as bowies in the 19th century (and lawmakers today will still agree). I've mentioned in the past that yes indeed, the old SOG knives of the Vietnam war were short bowies, two versions. The WWII V42 dagger still in stock and sent to Cambodia during some jumps (must return upon mission completion, per the troop). I could rattle off half a dozen names of makers doing iron mistresses, Searles, chute knives, Loveless subhilt homage knives (aka the CS OSS) but it still becomes a matter of taste and personal subjective usefulness. I like stag and micarta, some despise both. What ever......... I agree (always did) with all of this. Many things over the years have been called bowie (including the late/great David). The foot long bladed knife (maybe up to 13/14" blade) is about the maximum a human torso can conceal (and would you even if you could) . Our thought experiment of two differently bladed dudes fighting certainly does not have to be limited by concealability. I think only the bizarre Civil War bowies (often full on short swords with 14-18" blades with D guards) were truly non concealable (minus a long overcoat, of course).
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 3:37:21 GMT
Ah, medieval and rennie stuff. It's a bit like mixing metaphors and next we'll be arguing rapier vs katana and pole arm vs dagger (the latter a classic). Oh, man...pole arm...you just had to mention pole arm. Pole arm vs. spork.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 3:38:06 GMT
With Keating dragging you in to step on your toes and pick your nose. Regardless of blade length. He is not feinting with a long blade to hurt you, he is trying to draw the longer blade in to get control of leverage, It is why/how McBane preached smallsword controlling broadsword and longswords bind.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 3:40:50 GMT
As Keating himself will tell you, all the advantage and power can be dissolved. Twice the weight and blade length. Half as quick and twice the tip travel distance. So there... nnyya phfffft! Foul! Foul! flag thrown on the play....... Oh, no, we are now full circle...longer blade is twice the tip speed. Wait, were is that math book again. Fly swatter, fly swatter.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 3:43:42 GMT
This changes everything. Put knife on stick and you create spear/pole arm, which beats even long sword.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 3:49:12 GMT
A 1949 post Bowie Ames 1849 Rifelmans knife with a large longish blade. A nod to the utility remark but keep in mind it was meant more as a utility knife than a weapon. or they would have sold a hell of a lot of them if there was a need/market. www.rockislandauction.com/detail/56/1181/extraordinary-ames-us-model-1849-us-mounted-riflemans-knifeAmes did do bowies, so they were distinguishing between a clipped blade or not. Repros of the rifleman's are kind of common but not money I would waste on them unless found cheap and you can grind. CS makes an 1849 rifleman that would be a pretty vicious blade to tangle with. It too sports a blade that's over a foot long.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 3:59:23 GMT
Yet more than adequate for the past couple of centuries and we circle back to Bagwell, Keating, myself and a whole lot of others, many going by 20th century cqc and revisiting masters through history as the care to (with Keating forever preaching control and disabling, not fencing). Bayonets took the place of a short sabre or hanger, even though the briquet, glaives and hangers hung on to the 20th century to do mostly fascine work. An Argentine 1909 bolo hanger an example of late hangers. Long sabre and knife bladed bayonets still carried into WWII and beyond with knives themselves (meant for utility and cqc) leveling out in the 7" range. Just how did we get from dueling with knives to all small length blades over thousands of years? Long rondel and other long skinny daggers in the day to better poke past the tin cans and iron lace. Not to fence with. Offhand daggers of the 17th century quite short lived (rapier and main gauche) Context really is everything but the basics really kind of stay the same. Some seem to think knife fighting was as regular as civil duels were before the 19th century and that every hombre carried a big bowie to fight with. The gaucho would be an example (picture earlier) where large knife culture remained and rather culminating to their own end of fighting by the 20th century. The huge Iberian European navaja and Italian daggers as well, everybody pretty much calming down but the 20th century. The gaucho though, there are some old threads re dressed to kill in the SFI knife section. Is there a filipino paralell in formal traditional dueling with blades? I personally believe (and have read from others) that in early 19th century America, around the ports (like New Orleans), where many cultures merged, the apex of blade fighting culture (often in duels) was spawned, and culminated in the large bowie. Spain, Italy (you mentioned), along with a miss mash of Immigrants from different lands, dealing with the rough and tumble frontier with firearms that were yet to be stabilized. No doubt these long blades would not have been without the utility they offered when settling the continent.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 4:17:20 GMT
With Keating dragging you in to step on your toes and pick your nose. Regardless of blade length. He is not feinting with a long blade to hurt you, he is trying to draw the longer blade in to get control of leverage, It is why/how McBane preached smallsword controlling broadsword and longswords bind. Of course, you can always either go in close (perhaps your favorite style) or keep your distance, sniping the wrists or doing a penetrating lunge. Nice to have options with a versatile short sword.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 4:18:30 GMT
This changes everything. Put knife on stick and you create spear/pole arm, which beats even long sword. None of that is necessary though, a 7-inch combat utility knife is all you need. Do you even CQC? Why the 7", when a 5-6" is easier to carry and conceal?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 4:24:00 GMT
Ah but having had to travel less distance and because it weighed less,the shorter and quicker lever landed the point sooner.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 4:26:59 GMT
A 1949 post Bowie Ames 1849 Rifelmans knife with a large longish blade. A nod to the utility remark but keep in mind it was meant more as a utility knife than a weapon. or they would have sold a hell of a lot of them if there was a need/market. www.rockislandauction.com/detail/56/1181/extraordinary-ames-us-model-1849-us-mounted-riflemans-knifeAmes did do bowies, so they were distinguishing between a clipped blade or not. Repros of the rifleman's are kind of common but not money I would waste on them unless found cheap and you can grind. CS makes an 1849 rifleman that would be a pretty vicious blade to tangle with. It too sports a blade that's over a foot long. You mean the cut down cutlass handle thingie. That is not an Ames 1849 copy. Just the CS riflemans knife. edit Oh the did they did, Good for them.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 4:28:22 GMT
I personally believe (and have read from others) that in early 19th century America, around the ports (like New Orleans), where many cultures merged, the apex of blade fighting culture (often in duels) was spawned, and culminated in the large bowie. Spain, Italy (you mentioned), along with a miss mash of Immigrants from different lands, dealing with the rough and tumble frontier with firearms that were yet to be stabilized. No doubt these long blades would not have been without the utility they offered when settling the continent. And no doubt that as firearms stabilized and improved, knives took upon a more utilitarian size and manner as they no longer needed to count on them as actual weapons. Bingo.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 4:40:03 GMT
CS makes an 1849 rifleman that would be a pretty vicious blade to tangle with. It too sports a blade that's over a foot long. You mean the cut down cutlass handle thingie. That is not an Ames 1849 copy. Just the CS riflemans knife. edit Oh the did they did, Good for them. It does look pretty cool, and kind of different from their other stuff with the wood scaled handle.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 4:53:29 GMT
I was sempriniing about their cutlass frontier knife thingie in the Bladeforums Cold Steel section and they must have taken it to heart. That was back during the 2016 releases No trouble for them to stock, buying them from their India producers.
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Post by MOK on Feb 8, 2018 5:11:14 GMT
This changes everything. Put knife on stick and you create spear/pole arm, which beats even long sword. ...as long as there's occasion to carry and room to use it.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 5:46:27 GMT
This changes everything. Put knife on stick and you create spear/pole arm, which beats even long sword. ...as long as there's occasion to carry and room to use it. Which puts us right back in the phone booth with the small knife.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 5:52:45 GMT
I was sempriniing about their cutlass frontier knife thingie in the Bladeforums Cold Steel section and they must have taken it to heart. That was back during the 2016 releases No trouble for them to stock, buying them from their India producers. You may well have been the genesis for the CS 1849. I been eyeballing it, and if they had a big special it may end up in my vast room of wasted funds fueled by a bizarre blade addiction.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 5:57:51 GMT
Which puts us right back in the phone booth with the small knife. If we are fighting in a phone booth then the knife I would want would be a large push dagger or katar. Something stabbish (is that a word) and sturdy, held overhand icepick style, going for neck, face, throat, collarbone area. In any case, what a nightmare situation.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 8, 2018 6:20:26 GMT
None of that is necessary though, a 7-inch combat utility knife is all you need. Do you even CQC? Why the 7", when a 5-6" is easier to carry and conceal? Double tip speed
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