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Post by legacyofthesword on Jan 25, 2018 3:26:59 GMT
What's the difference? Size? If so, where is the size cut-off between a smallsword and a spadroon? Is it the blade shape - smallswords have a triangular blade, while spadroons have a more traditional diamond cross section? Do all smallswords have a triangular blade - is this a defining feature of a smallsword?
Questions, questions... I've been reading Donald McBane recently, so I'm curious.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Jan 25, 2018 3:32:10 GMT
Well, like all sword classification, being too categorical is tricky as people back in the day didn't put sword into boxes as much as we collectors like to do now. From what I understand though, Spadroons were single edge, straight military swords that were intended to be nimble thrusters and light cutters. Small swords on the other hand tended to be for dueling and self defense with no edge and a triangular blade. Smallswords, as the name implys, would also be shorter and lighter than spadroons.
I think the defining difference would be there intended purpose. If you had a sword that rode the line in some way, I'd call it a smallsword if it was made for a civilian and a spadroon if it was for a soldier.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jan 25, 2018 4:13:51 GMT
Errr, I usually use spadroon for military swords that are focused on cutting but have some capacity to cut and have a more robust hilt, ie; IOD 1889, US M1840, French M1882, or the British P1796.
I use smallsword for swords that have little to no cutting capacity and have very fanciful and "dainty" hilts.
I disagree with the classification of militarized smallsword personally. To me it is more of a smaller backsword, whereas a militarized smallsword would be Something like the French Gendarme I recently had pass through my hands, ie; diamond cross section, robust blade, emphasis on thrusting.
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Jan 25, 2018 4:24:40 GMT
Well, like all sword classification, being too categorical is tricky as people back in the day didn't put sword into boxes as much as we collectors like to do now. From what I understand though, Spadroons were single edge, straight military swords that were intended to be nimble thrusters and light cutters. Small swords on the other hand tended to be for dueling and self defense with no edge and a triangular blade. Smallswords, as the name implys, would also be shorter and lighter than spadroons. I think the defining difference would be there intended purpose. If you had a sword that rode the line in some way, I'd call it a smallsword if it was made for a civilian and a spadroon if it was for a soldier. The other thing to keep in mind is that historical terminology changed, a 17th century spadroon is not necessarily the same as a 19th century spadroon.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jan 25, 2018 4:51:42 GMT
Well, like all sword classification, being too categorical is tricky as people back in the day didn't put sword into boxes as much as we collectors like to do now. From what I understand though, Spadroons were single edge, straight military swords that were intended to be nimble thrusters and light cutters. Small swords on the other hand tended to be for dueling and self defense with no edge and a triangular blade. Smallswords, as the name implys, would also be shorter and lighter than spadroons. I think the defining difference would be there intended purpose. If you had a sword that rode the line in some way, I'd call it a smallsword if it was made for a civilian and a spadroon if it was for a soldier. The other thing to keep in mind is that historical terminology changed, a 17th century spadroon is not necessarily the same as a 19th century spadroon. True, and what was called a smallsword in the 19th century may not necessarily be what we would call a smallsword today as well. Certainly something to keep in mind.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 25, 2018 5:25:00 GMT
Did smallswords exist which had not a triangular blade? Btw in German we call all that stuff Degen. "Degenerated" classification system.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jan 25, 2018 5:31:42 GMT
Did smallswords exist which had not a triangular blade? Btw in German we call all that stuff Degen. "Degenerated" classification system. I think the colichemard may qualify. Is degen short for degenerated? That hilarious if so lol.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 25, 2018 5:42:27 GMT
Degen degenerated from rapiers
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 6:58:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 7:04:36 GMT
Degen degenerated from rapiers Spadroon was derived from the German term spadrone. The British P1796 infantry sword was copied from German spadrone.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Jan 25, 2018 7:10:30 GMT
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 25, 2018 11:59:20 GMT
I've never heard of a German sword called Spadane or Spadrone, those terms are clearly of Italian origin (spada). I can't google this terms, also nothing in "Liste der Blankwaffenfachbegriffe" in German wikipedia. That doesn't mean there weren't such swords, but the sources for their existence are not very common. "Degen" has the same roots as "dagger".
Edit: I think the wikipedia article or the book cited by edelweiss can be missunderstood: The German 18th cent. cut and thrust sword (Degen) was called Spadane or Spadrone in Italia or Spadroon in England, not in Germany.
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Post by bluetrain on Jan 25, 2018 13:23:15 GMT
I think there were smallswords that did not have triangular blades, although that needs explanation. The problem is, swords evolved out of being actual combat weapons into a dress or ceremonial item. When that happened, the older definitions became blurred as the swords themselves ceased to exhibit certain defining characteristics.
As an example, the US M1840 NCO sword would probably be called a spadroon. But the current version as manufactured by WKC has a flimsy blade with a diamond cross section. It really doesn't qualify as a spadroon and it also lacks any of the characteristics of a "real" smallswords, aside from being, well, a small sword. So what happened was that over the decades, both spadroons and smallswords evolved from being a fighting sword to something that might be called a court sword, a widely used term. Other swords also lost weight over the years in the same way. The current NCO sword is also a lot fancier than the ones in use during the Civil War. Even then, some regulation swords intended for officers, especially higher ranking officers, were no longer real combat weapons.
Anyway, I always thought it interesting that all swords referred to as smallswords as we use the term, had virtually identical hilts, varying mostly in the degree of ornamentation. But judging from photos of antique smallswords, the blades seem to have actually varied quite a bit in width and length.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 13:45:06 GMT
Andi One instance of the use in context. books.google.com/books?id=r0PCAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT330&dq=spadrone&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1gKuFl_PYAhUS02MKHZEzBu4Q6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=spadrone&f=falseI can easily yield the root of the word, as semantics is going to be a mature female dog. The original books.google.com/books?id=XgYHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA243&dq=spadrone&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1gKuFl_PYAhUS02MKHZEzBu4Q6AEITDAG#v=onepage&q=spadrone&f=falsebooks.google.com/books?id=XgYHAAAAQAAJSchools and Masters of Fence: From the Middle Ages to the Eighteenth Century Egerton Castle Bell & Sons, 1885 It's not unusual for some of these authors to use paragraphs in their entirety from books in the public domain but hopefully they use footnotes from time to time. With Italy (with all the Latin) like, right there and sword masters using like terms. there was bleed over. I was recently in a discussion where the name Picke then seemed something unusual that the maker's mark would include two crossed picks or rondel daggers, or if they were really crossed swords. Add now modern terminology and what fits best and what genuinely should be categorized as a spadroon? Where do we start? Where do we end the category of smallswords? Personally I see a lack of pas d ane as something else and then we can fued between epee and degen. Not to forget the use of monture, of the French first Empire instead of spadroon d anglaise. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Some spadroon hilts will be seen on slim broadsword blades. Some curved blades on those hilts will get listed as spadroons because of like hilts. Again, there are lots of spadroon threads at SBG. call any sword whatever you like to but be prepared to accept someone else's definition. Personally, I would not label many a spadroon bu each to their own belief and understanding. I could again suggest folk seek out publications beyond what one reads in forums but even then, there will always seem to be unanswered questions. Questions such as find me a reference for the pommel on my new shearing backsword (it's a stiffy).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 13:58:39 GMT
True, as it is an entirely different sword and not based on the m1840 nco sword but based on the 1840 sword for general officers. See the two in the middle here. Photo from civilwarpreservations
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jan 25, 2018 14:34:01 GMT
This may help some. Small sword: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_sword . While many, most perhaps, contained an unsharpened triangular some had a double edged sharpened blade. I strongly suspect this style was not for cutting as such as the sword was too light for that. But rather during a thrust it tended to cut tissue, tendons, vessels, etc. rather than to push them aside as would be the tendency of an unsharpened triangular blade. Spadroon: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spadroon Some spadroons, such as the British P1796 particularly, had an excessively flexible blade giving spadroons in general a bad name. That one was too light for a good cut and too flexible for a dependable thrust.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 25, 2018 14:56:33 GMT
("Picke" is a pickaxe)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 15:08:25 GMT
Then one might expect crossed pickaxes instead of picks or rondel daggers, right? What else can you dig up on the surname of Picke? Curious minds and all that. How old was the name as a surname?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 15:17:53 GMT
That might be better written as
Some spadroons, such as some British P1796 infantry swords particularly, had an excessively flexible blade giving spadroons in general a bad name.
Not all of them had as flexible a blade. There is the tried and true "perfect encumbrance" quote and Matty's videos but both fall well short of actually examining a broad array of the 1796 infantry and its use through the Napoleonic wars.
The thread was begun as a difference between a couple of sword types. Wikis can be a good start and some prefer them but if really interested, why start or stop there?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 15:31:45 GMT
Which is why I posted the entire paragraph from the 1885 book from fencing masters, and indeed yielded the point of origin.
Are you one to be satisfied with wiki briefs, or more likely to delve beyond the surface of a topic?
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