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Post by kalkikrosah on Jan 18, 2018 16:33:55 GMT
Gonna start off by saying that I am a low-key fanboy for Traditional Filipino Weapons. I own a karambit by them and cannot say anything bad about their craftsmanship from my own experience with them. I was turned onto them by Skallagrim, who also seems to have a fondness for them and had a hard time finding anything bad to say about them. That is until this happened:
Its always bad to see something like this happen. I can recall about a little over a year ago that Thomas Riley (Medieval Review) was reviewing the Darksword Armory Einar on his channel. And like in the video above the sword fractured across the handle, but it fractured for a different reason: the wood was bad. It could have been a faulty batch but it really knocked DSA for a loop and they are still doing damage control on it and trying to regain the trust of their consumers.
Back to TFW though, I was highly considering getting a Panabas myself for the future. I may hold off and look into something else after seeing this. Skallagrim went into detail trying to give his understanding as to why it failed and attributed it to the tang being too short and also pointed out that there was only one pin holding it in place (more pins is more stability). What happened to it is salvageable. Skallagrim plans on rehafting it with one of his local blacksmithing buddies and making a project out of it because the blade itself is still in working order. Which is good news for TFW that there won't be a complete overhaul of the blade smithing part but a redesign of the tang and hilt would definitely be highly suggested after seeing the current model's construction. I am hoping TFW can rebound from this incident but as of right now, one full day after Skallagrim posted the video to his viewers, they are remaining silent on the matter. I think Ron Kosakowski will make mention of it soon and hopefully take stock of what is in the marketplace and do some damage control to prevent this from happening to other buyers.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 18, 2018 20:41:53 GMT
And like in the video above the sword fractured across the handle, but it fractured for a different reason: the wood was bad. Looking at the video, I think it's the same reason: the wood was bad. This construction method places a higher demand on the quality of the wood than a typical Medieval European hilt (which in turn, demands higher quality than a full-length full-width tang with scales). This was already being discussed here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/53130/bci-panabas
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Post by howler on Jan 18, 2018 21:53:30 GMT
I've heard of rat tail tangs, but this is a "no tail". Impossibly short for a two handed chopping styled handle.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 19, 2018 0:18:38 GMT
I've heard of rat tail tangs, but this is a "no tail". Impossibly short for a two handed chopping styled handle. Briefly skimmed the video for a tang shot. What I saw looked pretty substantial for many, particularly ethnographic tools and weapons. You'd be surprised how little you need with the right glue and wood... Actually, when I first saw him holding it, I didn't realize it was the broken handle and thought it looked like a nice little single-hander. Then I realized it was meant for two...
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Post by bebut on Jan 19, 2018 1:00:01 GMT
I had a tang like that once--on a 69 cent steak knife! Now when I happen into a 69 cents knife on a yard sale package deal, I don't even give them to the Goodwill, I break them and throw them in the trash.
If you look at TFW's add hype on this puppy, they should do the same.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 1:05:30 GMT
Not to excuse the craftsmanship but he seems to be holding it a bit far down the handle in many of the shots where he's using the thing. No idea how that kind of weapon was meant to be used, the wood isn't great as others have mentioned.
Maybe the tang should have been longer - if you're gripping below the tang and muscling cuts a break should be expected.
Be really wary of the implication that the number of pins means anything - some of these makers get that idea in their head they'll put rivets or pins every half inch whether the tang goes that far or not.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 19, 2018 1:17:01 GMT
It's a major safety issue and I can't believe this is an accepted construction method anywhere. I suppose I can understand having a partial tang combined with a hardwood handle, but this was barely any tang at all on a very long handle.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 19, 2018 1:56:21 GMT
It's common enough on traditional tools and swords with long handles. The people who use them as tools and weapons think that it's an acceptable method of construction. Where I have seen traditional ones fail, it has usually been either (a) the resin-glue failing or (b) the wood around the tang rotting (presumably due to water creeping in along the tang).
But most of the examples of construction like this out there are one-handed (this includes most panabas examples I've seen built like this), or two-handed polearms with much longer hafts. With the long-hafted polearms, strain will be distributed over much more of the haft, and the haft will bend gently rather than breaking. One-handed, you will have less leverage with which to snap the end of the haft if you try to muscle a cut through. With a long-hafted polearm, you'll also exert less force on the end of the haft due to the long lever arm.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 19, 2018 2:19:14 GMT
Yeah, it's been working fine for thousands of people for hundreds of years. No doubt there have been failures throughout, but clearly the method has been found more than adequate for its duration.
This one was just bad luck, probably the wood. Just make another hilt with better wood and pin it more next time.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 19, 2018 2:28:53 GMT
The traditional ones aren't usually pinned - just glued in with resin.
Better wood is needed for sure.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jan 19, 2018 2:38:19 GMT
My $0.02 is that the wood did not hold up well at all (as Timo mentioned) and that the tang itself looks somewhat pathetic. The structural design of this particular piece is pretty bad, no way getting around it. Hopefully TFW remedies this with future variants, as it is still a fun type of weapon (when it is safe to use).
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Post by bebut on Jan 19, 2018 2:42:29 GMT
Brings up the question of whats under a lot of handles. Just saw a review on KOA of a Devil's Edge saex that had a welded tang on a 12 inch blade. The buyer was re-handling it for aesthetic reasons and wasn't too concerned. If it's used as a kitchen knife it should serve well, but it is sold as "battle ready". Historically, both uses are accurate. Now a 2 handed chopper, that is a different story.
There is good welding and bad welding, but makes me wonder why a manufacturer would choose such a construction? If somebody got hold of an x-ray machine I bet we would have a lot of surprises.
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Post by Croccifixio on Jan 19, 2018 6:53:38 GMT
This is how 90% of Filipino blades are made, with the reason being you replace the handles often anyway out in the field and this type of construction is easiest to replace.
But yes, with modern materials nowadays, you wouldn’t really want beater weapons to have this kind of construction.
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stormmaster
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I like viking/migration era swords
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Post by stormmaster on Jan 19, 2018 7:00:29 GMT
the tang looks ok in the video and should be fine for a single hander, the issue i believe is that the wood was not of good quality or from the pic i can see it was off center and it looks like the epoxy or glue is almost all the way to the left of the wood and theres barely any wood there.
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Post by pellius on Jan 19, 2018 21:09:32 GMT
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Post by howler on Jan 19, 2018 22:07:38 GMT
I've heard of rat tail tangs, but this is a "no tail". Impossibly short for a two handed chopping styled handle. Briefly skimmed the video for a tang shot. What I saw looked pretty substantial for many, particularly ethnographic tools and weapons. You'd be surprised how little you need with the right glue and wood... Actually, when I first saw him holding it, I didn't realize it was the broken handle and thought it looked like a nice little single-hander. Then I realized it was meant for two... Yeah, it's the two handed nature of this sword that screams "inadequate" with regards to the tang design (particularly tang length). The increased power and leverage, especially when holding near the butt end, would be a lot greater than a one handed sword with a short handle.
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Post by howler on Jan 19, 2018 22:14:59 GMT
Not to excuse the craftsmanship but he seems to be holding it a bit far down the handle in many of the shots where he's using the thing. No idea how that kind of weapon was meant to be used, the wood isn't great as others have mentioned. Maybe the tang should have been longer - if you're gripping below the tang and muscling cuts a break should be expected. Be really wary of the implication that the number of pins means anything - some of these makers get that idea in their head they'll put rivets or pins every half inch whether the tang goes that far or not. Yeah, the handle length, and with it the implied two handed use, is indeed (combined with inadequate tang design) the "other shoe" regarding this swords design flaw. A poor combination to be sure. Btw, the price was just cut in half, so maybe a good project sword.
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Post by howler on Jan 19, 2018 22:27:28 GMT
The traditional ones aren't usually pinned - just glued in with resin. Better wood is needed for sure. Better wood, no doubt, would increase structural integrity and should have been used. However, why not also make a more robust tang design, as this would have stopped the catastrophic failure as well. Better wood and tang design and the TFW Panabas is a fantastic piece. Sigh. Now, Timo, what do you think of this as a project sword, as the price was just cut in half?
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Post by howler on Jan 19, 2018 22:30:05 GMT
I had a tang like that once--on a 69 cent steak knife! Now when I happen into a 69 cents knife on a yard sale package deal, I don't even give them to the Goodwill, I break them and throw them in the trash. If you look at TFW's add hype on this puppy, they should do the same. I understand your sentiment, but what do you think of this blade as a project sword (as the price was just halved), as the blade and steel are still top notch?
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 20, 2018 1:25:18 GMT
Thing is, many polearms feature incredibly short tangs/sockets for their length and are explicitly two-handed. The whole "tang too short" argument is, arguably, irrelevant.
What question does arise is, is this a two-handed weapon, and where should one place their hands? A single hand at the far end of the hilt would certainly as extra stress to the whole assembly, but a second hand nearer the blade would reduce that greatly. With the primary hand by the blade and the secondary hand halfway down the handle, it should be just fine.
It really comes down to how one is supposed to hold and use one of these, and whether mishandling contributed to the failure.
I'd love to try a number of TFW's offerings, but frankly, they all need to be about half price before I even think about it...
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