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Post by howler on Jan 20, 2018 2:14:34 GMT
Thing is, many polearms feature incredibly short tangs/sockets for their length and are explicitly two-handed. The whole "tang too short" argument is, arguably, irrelevant. What question does arise is, is this a two-handed weapon, and where should one place their hands? A single hand at the far end of the hilt would certainly as extra stress to the whole assembly, but a second hand nearer the blade would reduce that greatly. With the primary hand by the blade and the secondary hand halfway down the handle, it should be just fine. It really comes down to how one is supposed to hold and use one of these, and whether mishandling contributed to the failure. I'd love to try a number of TFW's offerings, but frankly, they all need to be about half price before I even think about it... I think this sword lacks many attributes of a polearm. It is most certainly a two hander, so you have to allow for potential gripping farther from the guard for increased power and leverage. While a perfect wood and structural design, with same tang length, may have spared the catastrophic failure, a longer tang would have helped. If they make improvements in the future, I would recommend enhanced wood quality, structural design, and tang length into the equation.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 20, 2018 2:27:07 GMT
what do you think of this blade as a project sword (as the price was just halved), as the blade and steel are still top notch? Not one of my favourite blade types. Essentially, it's a double-bevel talibong blade (talibong blades are usually single-bevel AKA chisel-ground; TFW's is double-bevel). IMO, this makes it pretty useless for fixing the handle and keeping it as a panabas - the blade is just wrong (sharpened on the wrong side for a panabas). Me, I wouldn't pay that half-price for a bare talibong blade (or even a whole talibong), but YMMV. I'm not a talibong fan (but I will buy them when they're sufficiently cheap). But one could make a pretty nice Elven sword with it, or maybe an Elven polearm. My project queue is long enough to not want to add to it, though.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 20, 2018 2:30:51 GMT
Granted, the polearm example was merely a for-instance comparison, rather than a direct parallel.
I'm still in the camp that this construction method is not inadequate. If anything, I blame the climate shift. All too often international shipping tends to play havoc on what was good wood where it came from.
Rattan wrap, metal bands, etc may help prevent this but from what I understand push the limit on traditional construction that many of us are so hung up on. A modernized variant would likely have a long, wide tang with rubber or micarta etc slabs, and would surely be more robust than the traditional stuffs, but a great many would call it out as sacrilege. We've all seen it before.
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Jan 20, 2018 2:50:14 GMT
There is ONE example of a failure here. Every manufacturer has the odd blade that breaks or is poorly constructed. Until there's more than this one broken handle I wouldn't worry too much.
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Post by howler on Jan 20, 2018 2:56:35 GMT
Granted, the polearm example was merely a for-instance comparison, rather than a direct parallel. I'm still in the camp that this construction method is not inadequate. If anything, I blame the climate shift. All too often international shipping tends to play havoc on what was good wood where it came from. Rattan wrap, metal bands, etc may help prevent this but from what I understand push the limit on traditional construction that many of us are so hung up on. A modernized variant would likely have a long, wide tang with rubber or micarta etc slabs, and would surely be more robust than the traditional stuffs, but a great many would call it out as sacrilege. We've all seen it before. I believe as well that it could have been (clearly was not) adequate if executed correctly, even with the smaller tang. There are only about four or so variables at play that probably partially conspired to cause the event, which included quality of wood, structural details between blade and handle (which can be kind of complex), tang size, handle length. For future sales assurance to the customer, I'd enhance all four variables and use that in the sales pitch for the IMPROVED model.
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Post by howler on Jan 20, 2018 3:01:34 GMT
There is ONE example of a failure here. Every manufacturer has the odd blade that breaks or is poorly constructed. Until there's more than this one broken handle I wouldn't worry too much. Your point is valid, but the problem is more than the one in a million "tank" that broke, as even a layman can see potential design flaws. This is why the manufacturer immediately cut the price of remaining inventory in half.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2018 3:07:51 GMT
Thing is, many polearms feature incredibly short tangs/sockets for their length and are explicitly two-handed. The whole "tang too short" argument is, arguably, irrelevant. What question does arise is, is this a two-handed weapon, and where should one place their hands? A single hand at the far end of the hilt would certainly as extra stress to the whole assembly, but a second hand nearer the blade would reduce that greatly. With the primary hand by the blade and the secondary hand halfway down the handle, it should be just fine. It really comes down to how one is supposed to hold and use one of these, and whether mishandling contributed to the failure. I'd love to try a number of TFW's offerings, but frankly, they all need to be about half price before I even think about it... A general rule that's served me well with two handed swords is the right hand placed such that the index finger is about one finger width below the guard (whether cross or tsuba, longsword or katana, whatever), left hand placed such that the smallest finger is half-on, half-off the end of the handle. There can be a lot of nuance here, for example it isn't just about hand placement, but where the drive or power is coming from. Looking at the form being used along with the hand placement, I'm really not surprised the break happened where it did. Glad no one was hurt. The angle at which the blade intercepts the target also changes how the forces are applied. Not just the cutting plane or "hasuji" but the amount of drawing through the target. In general I try to avoid chopping into a target - I don't "clothes line" into one. I don't doubt for a second that the Cutting with the Medieval Sword: Theory and Application book has a detailed explanation of this.
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Post by Croccifixio on Jan 20, 2018 3:20:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2018 3:40:59 GMT
..then again when I watch the video on their site promoting both that use and grip of the weapon, apparently it's what they want / expect so now I'm looking more in their direction for what happened here.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 20, 2018 4:30:24 GMT
This is why the manufacturer immediately cut the price of remaining inventory in half. Is it, though? Or is it a (marketing) safety response to a massive backlash from skall's fanboys, or perhaps a response to those pointing out that, regardless of design integrity, the piece in question is simply not what it claims to be? That is, it's not a proper panabas, as has been detailed already. I still say the whole affair is a fluke, and anybody crying "inadequate" is just uninformed... These have been this way hundreds of years. This is the first one I've heard of that broke...and for all I know, it's because the owner used it wrong. Still haven't even watched the full video, granted, because it's simply too long.
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Jan 20, 2018 4:37:11 GMT
This is why the manufacturer immediately cut the price of remaining inventory in half. Is it, though? Or is it a (marketing) safety response to a massive backlash from skall's fanboys, or perhaps a response to those pointing out that, regardless of design integrity, the piece in question is simply not what it claims to be? That is, it's not a proper panabas, as has been detailed already. I still say the whole affair is a fluke, and anybody crying "inadequate" is just uninformed... These have been this way hundreds of years. This is the first one I've heard of that broke...and for all I know, it's because the owner used it wrong. Still haven't even watched the full video, granted, because it's simply too long. Exactly! The way some people are carrying on you'd think the thing had been made by darksword or something. The company is called traditional Filipino weapons, not Filipino weapons made to American expectations.
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Jan 20, 2018 4:42:17 GMT
There is ONE example of a failure here. Every manufacturer has the odd blade that breaks or is poorly constructed. Until there's more than this one broken handle I wouldn't worry too much. Your point is valid, but the problem is more than the one in a million "tank" that broke, as even a layman can see potential design flaws. This is why the manufacturer immediately cut the price of remaining inventory in half. The biggest design flaw I can see, in terms of traditional construction, is the over large hole drilled for the tang that's then been filled with epoxy. Why not just burn the tang in?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2018 13:50:23 GMT
I really hope nobody gets hurt. If somebody injures themselves now that these guys have announced that they know there is a problem with the product, that's not good.
If you know there's something wrong with a thing you sell, stop selling it.
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Post by howler on Jan 20, 2018 21:41:23 GMT
This is why the manufacturer immediately cut the price of remaining inventory in half. Is it, though? Or is it a (marketing) safety response to a massive backlash from skall's fanboys, or perhaps a response to those pointing out that, regardless of design integrity, the piece in question is simply not what it claims to be? That is, it's not a proper panabas, as has been detailed already. I still say the whole affair is a fluke, and anybody crying "inadequate" is just uninformed... These have been this way hundreds of years. This is the first one I've heard of that broke...and for all I know, it's because the owner used it wrong. Still haven't even watched the full video, granted, because it's simply too long. There have been many traditional designs of this sword in its centuries long history, but this modern interpretation seems to lack various attributes of those various designs. And really, wouldn't you make that tang just a weeeeeeeeeeeee bit longer?
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Post by howler on Jan 20, 2018 21:48:39 GMT
Is it, though? Or is it a (marketing) safety response to a massive backlash from skall's fanboys, or perhaps a response to those pointing out that, regardless of design integrity, the piece in question is simply not what it claims to be? That is, it's not a proper panabas, as has been detailed already. I still say the whole affair is a fluke, and anybody crying "inadequate" is just uninformed... These have been this way hundreds of years. This is the first one I've heard of that broke...and for all I know, it's because the owner used it wrong. Still haven't even watched the full video, granted, because it's simply too long. Exactly! The way some people are carrying on you'd think the thing had been made by darksword or something. The company is called traditional Filipino weapons, not Filipino weapons made to American expectations. This is one of their only (if only) two handed sword. TFW is great, though a bit pricy (my opinion). I do agree with you that people scream murder when a blade (even a rock solid performer like a Becker BK9, for example) is shown broken on YouTube, and thus overreact. No company is perfect and the "lemon law" (like Murphy's law) can always strike. In this case, it is not just the failure but the two handed nature of the sword coupled with the wood, epoxy, CRAZY short tang, etc...
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Post by howler on Jan 20, 2018 21:54:19 GMT
Your point is valid, but the problem is more than the one in a million "tank" that broke, as even a layman can see potential design flaws. This is why the manufacturer immediately cut the price of remaining inventory in half. The biggest design flaw I can see, in terms of traditional construction, is the over large hole drilled for the tang that's then been filled with epoxy. Why not just burn the tang in? Yup, I do think this is something TFW can fix. Enhance all the questionable elements and you will end up with a killer sword. They should study some of the other traditional methods and maybe add a few modern wrinkles (without ruining the traditional look).
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Post by howler on Jan 20, 2018 21:57:56 GMT
I really hope nobody gets hurt. If somebody injures themselves now that these guys have announced that they know there is a problem with the product, that's not good. If you know there's something wrong with a thing you sell, stop selling it. Can almost see some kid grab their fathers, older brothers sword and smash it near the tang against an upright pole, thus turning the blade into a flying boomerang.
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