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Post by tancred on Dec 28, 2017 6:11:08 GMT
I currently own a Windlass Early Spanish Sword, and have the opportunity to purchase a Hanwei Tinker Early 9th Century Viking Sword. The Windlass is a beautifully wide Type XVIII. However and unfortunately, the balance is too off/the sword weighs too much for it to be used comfortably or effectively one-handed. I'd like to somehow make it in to a two-hander without sacrificing any blade length. Same thing with the Hanwei. I've always admired the blade shape/type, but what I'd really love to see would be for it to be made in to a two-hander without reducing any of the blade length. In reading many threads and posts on this board, I've often come across the problem of tangs that have been welded in some way or another. Usually a bad thing, I guess it can be ok if the weld is a very good and proper one. This would seem to be a possible solution to my desired morphing of these two blades from one-handers to two-handers without losing any of the blade length. So, is this just a straight-up bad idea? Is it possible? I'm pretty darn sure I do not have any of the skills or tools needed for such a task. Are there any sword customizers out there who do this work, or would be willing to? What would be the ballpark cost for this? Is there another solution I do not know of? Thanks in advance to any who might have suggestions, and moderators, please move this thread if it would fit better in a different forum. Thanks!
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 28, 2017 6:24:45 GMT
Oof, that's a tough one. My thought would be an all metal hilt, with the second half of the grip extending past the tang, with some kind of very long nut holding the assembly on, ala Hanwei Tinker?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 28, 2017 6:31:39 GMT
imgur.com/QiHX44jThis could be kind of flimsy I feel though. Perhaps a good scarf weld would be best. It was used historically to weld blades to tangs sometimes as I understand it.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 28, 2017 6:36:56 GMT
I remember smiths and makers saying a well made welded on tang extension is ok. The costs are the question.
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Post by MOK on Dec 28, 2017 7:31:49 GMT
In reading many threads and posts on this board, I've often come across the problem of tangs that have been welded in some way or another. Usually a bad thing, I guess it can be ok if the weld is a very good and proper one. It's more the other way around: it's usually OK, but can be a bad thing if the weld is a very bad and improper one (like embarrassingly much of cheap modern stuff is, mostly due to the time constraints involved in cheap mass production). A proper weld turns two pieces of metal into one for all practical intents and purposes, and doing a proper weld isn't particularly hard or complicated, either, assuming you have the skills, tools and time to do it right. Look at how Lutel swords are constructed, or for a more extreme example Mike Craughwell's sword-shaped monstrosities. A whole lot of historical swords also have forge welded tangs, for that matter, or even pattern welded blades made of a bunch of different rods welded together - and Japanese folded steel is entirely made of welds! Welds are not bad. Bad welds are bad. That said, having a smith do this for you could easily cost as much as a whole new sword...
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Dec 28, 2017 7:51:15 GMT
Perhaps instead of a smith, try finding a local metal fabrication shop, explain what you're after and ask how much. Your local mechanic could probably do it even.
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stormmaster
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I like viking/migration era swords
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Post by stormmaster on Dec 28, 2017 8:00:53 GMT
a proper done forge weld will be ok, in fact it might even be stronger then a regular tang depending on the quality of the weld and if u weld softer steel to the carbon it should make it more shock resistant, but it has to be done properly.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Dec 28, 2017 8:37:57 GMT
... or for a more extreme example Mike Craughwell's sword-shaped monstrosities. Was going to bring up this very man; I follow his Youtube channel because his videos are very calming to watch and it's a treat to watch the process behind his artwork. Mike's works are stupidly heavy for realistic, functional swords (but that's not his thing, so it's not an issue) and his welds still manage to hold up to the abuse he puts them through in his smashing demos at the end of his build videos despite each piece tending to weigh in excess of 40-50lbs. Like you said, welds in an of themselves aren't bad; bad welds are bad.
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Post by tancred on Dec 28, 2017 9:22:35 GMT
Thank you all for the kind and helpful replies! I've seen pictures of the original sword the Windlass is based on. The original sword has some good hollow grounding on it, almost to the point that it almost looks like it has a central ridge to it. My main reason for not wanting to sacrifice any blade length is that I'm afraid it would take away from the blade width. I love wide blades best! I've never seen the Hanwei Tinker in person, so I'm just going by pictures when I say I like the blade shape. While I've found some sites that sell the complete sword, I can't find any with the bare blade in stock. The latter option would have been great, because I don't envision my desired two-hander with the Viking guard and pommel. Should I ever get to that point, I'd have to get a different guard and pommel. Not a problem with the Windlass, as I like the pommel and guard on that one. Thank you all for the clarifications on good welds being ok. That's one less worry there. Would just have to make sure whoever would do the welding would do the job properly. I have no fears about the weight of the Hanwei. While I haven't weighed the Windlass, I'm guessing its over 3 lbs. Due to living in the city in a somewhat crowded neighborhood, I don't do much cutting. Mainly just practice/dry cutting. So, neither of these potential swords would be experiencing much stress and zero abuse. So, that might mean less stress on any welds on the tang. I do like Scott's suggestion to look in to local mechanics or fabrication shops. That sounds like a pretty decent starting point. Some of you suggested Mike Craughwell, so that's good information to keep in mind, too. Thank you all again. Any further ideas or suggestions are most welcome!
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christain
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It's the steel on the inside that counts.
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Post by christain on Dec 28, 2017 17:35:16 GMT
FWIW----I have made a tang extension by taking a large bolt, removing the head, and cutting it down the center with a fine grit cut-off saw. When finished, it looked like : ==>----. I welded the open end of the bolt to the existing sword tang. Then used a large acorn nut on the end as a pommel nut. Worked like a charm, and was/is strong as hell. I've personally used that sword for MASSIVE, HEAVY CUTS with no issues at all. Maybe not traditional--or even proper--but it works.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Dec 29, 2017 0:04:54 GMT
A good weld isn't the only thing you need, you need to avoid damaging the heat treatment of the blade and also not create brittle areas in the tang.
I would recommend first keying the end of the tang into the piece used for the extension rather than just butting the two pieces end to end so that the weld travels lengthwise along the tang as well as across. For instance, if the end of the existing tang were shaped to look like a tang that was to be keyed into a peened pommel and the extension were given a matching void which would allow the two pieces to fit together.
Secondly, you don't need a sword maker to do this, but do need someone with the skill and equipment to weld high carbon steel, which is not the same as welding mild steel. So the guy at the local muffler shop might not be the best choice (though it is possible he could be).
To prevent the weld from damaging the temper of the blade, a heat sinc should be used on the blade side of the weld. This can just be some heavy blocks of steel tightly clamped on the tang before the shoulder.
Lastly, the weld and immediate surroundings should be heated after welding to normalize that area.
It's a pretty doable project and doesn't require any extraordinary skills. However, it really should be done right for best results.
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Dec 29, 2017 5:45:27 GMT
I've actually done quite a few extensions of single handers to hand and a half handle length over the years by using a clevis fork concept, which goes back to a long-running knifemaking patent. ( www.google.com/patents/US4458420 ) In the case of sword I don't make the joint hole in the tang but rather an inch or so up the ricasso. Nevertheless, just as the patent outlines, this indeed does make for a great reduction of stress on impact; if someone had come up with it historically I can't imagine it wouldn't have caught on in some places. (No welding required!)
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Post by Creedl0rd on Dec 29, 2017 18:45:04 GMT
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Dec 29, 2017 23:16:40 GMT
My prime example is in this pic of turning a Hanwei Dark Sentinel into a makeshift kriegsmesser. The hole for the clevis joint is about four inches in front of the guard, about an inch up past the tang. Hence the extension of a handle to cover it up, but no problem as I wanted to do a "wrapped" ricasso section anyway. It did allow me to extend the effective blade length that much though, which is what I was after in this case, but as the tang didn't extend all the way back in the Dark Sentinel meant having to move the tang back too. In this case, as usual, it's actually not a clevis fork I use but 16 gauge mild steel scales cut to the handle profile to either side, held by the joint and then covered by he handle wood and wrap. Still, same concept as in the patent. By having the abilityto rotate and flex ever so slightly on impact, a notable amount of stress actually never reaches the tang. Strong as a rock though, tested out empirically; I've put this through targets as tough or tougher than any of my other blades and it holds up like a champ. Wow. Now Photobucket's caught up with me, for an older-than-the-hills account with almost no photos and almost no sharing from them. Yup, they're toast in my book now too. :/ Anyway, many apologies. I'll add the pic(s) back when I switch these to another hosting service too.
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Post by tancred on Dec 30, 2017 1:11:21 GMT
Eager to see them, LeMal. The work you described sounds pretty good, I just need to visualize it. Thanks for your input!
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Dec 30, 2017 3:59:40 GMT
OK, let's see if Imgur will be less obstreperous as a host.
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Dec 30, 2017 4:40:02 GMT
There we go. (Yay, Imgur!) Now on this admittedly quick and crude diagram, envision yellow line A as approximately where the original bare blade shoulders were and yellow line B as the back of the tang. (I was just a bit saddened to find, when disassembling the DS, the tang does not go all the way to the back of that long handle, it's only a three-quarters tang, and even just a tad narrow. Thus the need for an extension.) Two steel plates, like handle scales on a messer, were placed to either side, extending up the blade as well, like the dark grey rectangle I've drawn here. A hole was drilled in the ricasso section, about where the small red circle can be seen. (Going further up the ricasso for the rivet, btw, being inspired by the examples of antique Indian swords that have that feature.) There the scales were riveted to the blade, but in such a way that, if left at that, the handle scales could rotate. They don't actually rotate, however, because I placed a leather washer as a small spacer between each steel handle scale and the blade, then filled the gap between scales and blade with pitch adhesive. Then the wooden handle was fitted and glued over that, and the hemp cord you see wrapped over that and glued. (I'll eventually have a better looking leather wrap over that. Eventually. ;) But I'm lazy and, well, as I described it holds together under even hard use nicely as is.) Hopefully the way that this just upscales the diagram from that patent makes sense. As for doing the same thing with a traditional Euro pommel construction, one just makes it an actual clevis fork with a rod extending out the back instead of separate scales. Same idea though: bypass any part of the tang as a stress point and thus save it.
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