Dissapointed: Yet Another Manufacturer Leaves Us..
Aug 14, 2017 6:48:11 GMT
Post by admin on Aug 14, 2017 6:48:11 GMT
When I created the forum I had a vision of a cool place where sword collectors and enthusiasts could communicate directly with the top sword manufacturers in a civil and polite manner to help them develop and improve their products to raise the standard of the industry and produce the kind of swords you guys REALLY want, not just what the manufacturers guess you want, or what they think is good enough..
Despite a plethora of rules and codes of conduct developed after manufacturer after manufacturer was driven off the forum by haters and inappropriate questions, person attacks and hidden agendas, it would seem yet another Manufacturer has thrown in the towel with bad behavior from SBG members..
To see just how dramatic this failure to create an open forum between makers and collectors, take a look at the manufacturers and vendors section today and go back 58 pages to the start.
One the first few pages (when the forum started) there are posts by Zinje from Musashi Swords, Sonny Suttles from Valiant Armory, Trueswordsman of Arms of Valor, Clyde Hollis from Generation 2, Michael 'Tinker' Peace, John Lundemo, Christian Fletcher, Sword N Armory, and many others.
Almost all have left because of the antagonistic attitude of some members towards the very people and companies who risk their life savings and bend over backwards to try and make good products. But instead of helping them, some members seemed to delight in conducting witch hunts, spreading rumors and making wild speculations so that manufacturers and vendors started to become wary to make a new post or announcement for fear it would be hijacked and turn into a bashing thread.
Well in this fine tradition, my good friend Chris Scoggin from Ronin Katana has decided to bow out of SBG for the last time..
Here is the announcment he made on the Facebook page:
Quite a bit of craziness on Facebook tonight in a troll attack over Ronin's newest sword.
Ser Caleb Hader and Kris Micozzi went into full kamikaze mode after they decided that I was some sort of fly by night scammer with a Ryan Sword affiliation. Micozzi even went so far as to say the sword Ronin has was in Ryan Swords inventory when he worked there. Wow. You can't make this stuff up.
Obviously they don't know who I am, as I was posting under my name and not as Ronin. However even after politely explaining who Ronin is, the semprini storm just kept brewing.
It's a rock and a hard place for mods like Paul at SBG and Tom at All Swords, whom I both know and respect. If people and companies are to be torn apart at will, what's the point of those groups? Obvously Kris Micozzi never saw Ronin's meteorite sword in Ryan Swords inventory. I've posted pictures of it in rough state going through polish, pics of the meteorites, the smith and have lots more with my pregnant wife in them.
Really it's quite a shame when a company tries to launch a product they are proud of and took years to bring to fruition, and right out of the gate, here come the trolls. SBG has been plagued by them for years, and I emailed Paul tonight and let him know Ronin is done over there. That's enough. I've chatted with many of the mods over the years and think they do a great job, but at this point I think Ronin is just a distraction when I post something.
This isn't about having a thick skin. This is about people who think they have a little power and set about abusing it at another's expense. For the mean time I have let the mods of those areas know. Hopefully it ends there.I am super busy right now working on the Fantasy Sword project over in the members designs section, so really don't want to get bogged down in a major housekeeping issue, but rather just wanted to express my disappointment that the dream I had of members working with manufacturers to lift the standard of swords and address the issues that people have at the core.
Now all you can do is complain and nothing will change because most manufacturers don't even come here anymore. Driving a manufacturer away from SBG is NOT a victory, it is a serious loss - both for you, everyone else and for the forum itself.
Naturally, I am very disappointed. Chris spent two years on this project, to show exactly what is involved to make a true meteoric sword and to expose the BS of some China based sellers who claim to have such blades but, as you would see from what is involved to actually make one, are exposed as lies - not just from anecdotes, but fully documented. And some members of the SBG community have ironically called Chris a scammer..
Now some may argue that you just need to tell it like it is and call out anything slightly suspect. This is fine. But there is a constructive and a destructive way to do this, and it seems that once someone sets a negative tone, the pile on begins..
I am not sure how to address this problem. The rules are clear and designed to facilitate civilized discourse - anything can be said as long as it is said respectfully. I have said this so many times it is now becoming a bit meaningless.
So here is my suggestion. If you cannot follow the rules, cannot be civil and are the type who enjoys trolling manufacturers - please take your gripes and bitterness elsewhere. We should never be a site that just praises manufacturers and never challenges them, that would defeat the purpose of the whole site and not lead to the improvements and refinements we all seek in our swords. But if you have an agenda, or are the type who enters every thread about a manufacturer you have some personal issues with, now might be a good time to take your leave..
I don't know whether I will attempt to restore the original concept of manufacturer-collector feedback and interface. While we would all benefit from open channels of communication with manufacturers, it seems that it is not possible under the current set up.
I will revisit the concept and see if it can be salvaged somehow at a later date. And this post does not signal a change in policies or anything at this point, but is rather just a heads up for the few who seem to delight in derailing things, making snide comments or spreading unsubstantiated rumors and speculation - I have had enough of this kind of behavior and if it continues, you might as well leave now because regardless of how long you have been here or what your standing is in the community, your actions are cancerous, unappreciated and just plain mean spirited.
The vast, overwhelming majority of members here aren't like this and my frustration and disappointment is not directed at the forum generaly, only those bad apples who delight in confrontation and derailing SBG projects that could benefit the community as a whole.
READ THE RULES
They are clear.
Such a shame, as originally I was hoping that with a large and active base of manufactures on board we could have competitions, give aways, product development workshops, etc. But instead we get trolls, witch-hunts and a complete lack of respect.
Long story short - cut it out. We are here to support a fragile and extremely small cottage industry - the manufacturers are not corporate giants and most are continually on the edge of going under. The choice is yours, do you want to raise them up and get more and better swords than what we have today? Or do you prefer a two or three manufacturers with a monopoly who can set their own prices and you can take it or leave it?
Which camp you are in is up to you. But if you are in the camp of the destroyers and the haters, please - find somewhere else to pitch your tent, okay?
Apologies if this comes off as a rant, but Chris is a personal friend of mine as well as a business associate who had been doing his best to share a ton of inside information with you all, but now that is all done and dusted and we are back guessing about how swords are made in Longquan and building inaccurate stories based on incorrect assumed foundations..
Overall, just disheartened and disappointed and have nothing further to say on this for now.. A sad day indeed.
Despite a plethora of rules and codes of conduct developed after manufacturer after manufacturer was driven off the forum by haters and inappropriate questions, person attacks and hidden agendas, it would seem yet another Manufacturer has thrown in the towel with bad behavior from SBG members..
To see just how dramatic this failure to create an open forum between makers and collectors, take a look at the manufacturers and vendors section today and go back 58 pages to the start.
One the first few pages (when the forum started) there are posts by Zinje from Musashi Swords, Sonny Suttles from Valiant Armory, Trueswordsman of Arms of Valor, Clyde Hollis from Generation 2, Michael 'Tinker' Peace, John Lundemo, Christian Fletcher, Sword N Armory, and many others.
Almost all have left because of the antagonistic attitude of some members towards the very people and companies who risk their life savings and bend over backwards to try and make good products. But instead of helping them, some members seemed to delight in conducting witch hunts, spreading rumors and making wild speculations so that manufacturers and vendors started to become wary to make a new post or announcement for fear it would be hijacked and turn into a bashing thread.
Well in this fine tradition, my good friend Chris Scoggin from Ronin Katana has decided to bow out of SBG for the last time..
Here is the announcment he made on the Facebook page:
Quite a bit of craziness on Facebook tonight in a troll attack over Ronin's newest sword.
Ser Caleb Hader and Kris Micozzi went into full kamikaze mode after they decided that I was some sort of fly by night scammer with a Ryan Sword affiliation. Micozzi even went so far as to say the sword Ronin has was in Ryan Swords inventory when he worked there. Wow. You can't make this stuff up.
Obviously they don't know who I am, as I was posting under my name and not as Ronin. However even after politely explaining who Ronin is, the semprini storm just kept brewing.
It's a rock and a hard place for mods like Paul at SBG and Tom at All Swords, whom I both know and respect. If people and companies are to be torn apart at will, what's the point of those groups? Obvously Kris Micozzi never saw Ronin's meteorite sword in Ryan Swords inventory. I've posted pictures of it in rough state going through polish, pics of the meteorites, the smith and have lots more with my pregnant wife in them.
Really it's quite a shame when a company tries to launch a product they are proud of and took years to bring to fruition, and right out of the gate, here come the trolls. SBG has been plagued by them for years, and I emailed Paul tonight and let him know Ronin is done over there. That's enough. I've chatted with many of the mods over the years and think they do a great job, but at this point I think Ronin is just a distraction when I post something.
This isn't about having a thick skin. This is about people who think they have a little power and set about abusing it at another's expense. For the mean time I have let the mods of those areas know. Hopefully it ends there.
Now all you can do is complain and nothing will change because most manufacturers don't even come here anymore. Driving a manufacturer away from SBG is NOT a victory, it is a serious loss - both for you, everyone else and for the forum itself.
Naturally, I am very disappointed. Chris spent two years on this project, to show exactly what is involved to make a true meteoric sword and to expose the BS of some China based sellers who claim to have such blades but, as you would see from what is involved to actually make one, are exposed as lies - not just from anecdotes, but fully documented. And some members of the SBG community have ironically called Chris a scammer..
Now some may argue that you just need to tell it like it is and call out anything slightly suspect. This is fine. But there is a constructive and a destructive way to do this, and it seems that once someone sets a negative tone, the pile on begins..
I am not sure how to address this problem. The rules are clear and designed to facilitate civilized discourse - anything can be said as long as it is said respectfully. I have said this so many times it is now becoming a bit meaningless.
So here is my suggestion. If you cannot follow the rules, cannot be civil and are the type who enjoys trolling manufacturers - please take your gripes and bitterness elsewhere. We should never be a site that just praises manufacturers and never challenges them, that would defeat the purpose of the whole site and not lead to the improvements and refinements we all seek in our swords. But if you have an agenda, or are the type who enters every thread about a manufacturer you have some personal issues with, now might be a good time to take your leave..
I don't know whether I will attempt to restore the original concept of manufacturer-collector feedback and interface. While we would all benefit from open channels of communication with manufacturers, it seems that it is not possible under the current set up.
I will revisit the concept and see if it can be salvaged somehow at a later date. And this post does not signal a change in policies or anything at this point, but is rather just a heads up for the few who seem to delight in derailing things, making snide comments or spreading unsubstantiated rumors and speculation - I have had enough of this kind of behavior and if it continues, you might as well leave now because regardless of how long you have been here or what your standing is in the community, your actions are cancerous, unappreciated and just plain mean spirited.
The vast, overwhelming majority of members here aren't like this and my frustration and disappointment is not directed at the forum generaly, only those bad apples who delight in confrontation and derailing SBG projects that could benefit the community as a whole.
READ THE RULES
They are clear.
Specifically:
3. Share information about different swords, manufacturers, vendors and other products/services in a respectful and responsible manner, not resorting to slander, liable speech, heckling, or other immature/hostile behaviour;
5. Keep other Members’ threads on topic by not derailing or otherwise hijacking the topic of a thread. If the OP (original poster) asks about a specific product or question, do not answer ‘get a [insert alternative product here] instead’ unless the OP has specifically requested alternative options. If you do not like a particular product, you must address it in a ‘pros and cons’ format. In other words, find a few good things to say about it – not just dismiss it out of hand because it is not to your personal tastes;
9. Trolling will not be tolerated under any circumstance. See the definition below.
Definition of trolling (from Wikipedia):
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
3. Share information about different swords, manufacturers, vendors and other products/services in a respectful and responsible manner, not resorting to slander, liable speech, heckling, or other immature/hostile behaviour;
5. Keep other Members’ threads on topic by not derailing or otherwise hijacking the topic of a thread. If the OP (original poster) asks about a specific product or question, do not answer ‘get a [insert alternative product here] instead’ unless the OP has specifically requested alternative options. If you do not like a particular product, you must address it in a ‘pros and cons’ format. In other words, find a few good things to say about it – not just dismiss it out of hand because it is not to your personal tastes;
9. Trolling will not be tolerated under any circumstance. See the definition below.
Definition of trolling (from Wikipedia):
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
Such a shame, as originally I was hoping that with a large and active base of manufactures on board we could have competitions, give aways, product development workshops, etc. But instead we get trolls, witch-hunts and a complete lack of respect.
Long story short - cut it out. We are here to support a fragile and extremely small cottage industry - the manufacturers are not corporate giants and most are continually on the edge of going under. The choice is yours, do you want to raise them up and get more and better swords than what we have today? Or do you prefer a two or three manufacturers with a monopoly who can set their own prices and you can take it or leave it?
Which camp you are in is up to you. But if you are in the camp of the destroyers and the haters, please - find somewhere else to pitch your tent, okay?
Apologies if this comes off as a rant, but Chris is a personal friend of mine as well as a business associate who had been doing his best to share a ton of inside information with you all, but now that is all done and dusted and we are back guessing about how swords are made in Longquan and building inaccurate stories based on incorrect assumed foundations..
Overall, just disheartened and disappointed and have nothing further to say on this for now.. A sad day indeed.