|
Post by ambulocetus on Jun 6, 2017 13:56:32 GMT
Well, it doesn't look like the old KC 5160 katanas are going to come back, so what does anyone think about the Chinese blades they are now selling? Do they have a similar geometry and balance to the old swords? I wasn't really looking for a folded steel blade, but if it it's got niku and it feels good in the hand, I can live with it.
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Jun 6, 2017 15:23:35 GMT
I've got a couple of questions about them too. The steel in the KC katana and tachi photos (on both the KC and KOA sites) looks identical (or extremely similar) to the work in some long, meaty, folded blades I got (knowingly) from a Longquan "relic weasel" on eBay, but unlike everything else I've seen coming out of Longquan forges. The blades I have are unusually rugged, durable, and will hold an edge (though they cannot possibly be confused with nihonto ). First question==> Who's making stuff that looks like this? Second question==> Has anyone seen any proof of the KC claim of 66 HRC for their blade edges? If they're really doing that, I want some!
|
|
|
Post by Croccifixio on Jun 6, 2017 22:48:33 GMT
|
|
|
Post by ambulocetus on Jun 7, 2017 1:12:50 GMT
Treeslicer, yeah 66 hrc does sound kind of high, and the etching on the hada looks kind of weird. I probably wouldn't even be considering it if KC didn't have such a good reputation. Thanks for the links Croccifixio. Going to go check that out
|
|
|
Post by connorclarke on Jun 7, 2017 17:44:07 GMT
You rarely get 66HRC knives let alone swords lol.
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Jun 7, 2017 19:57:46 GMT
You rarely get 66HRC knives let alone swords lol. Oh, you can find that sort of thing in the edges of some nihonto, but they are metallugically peculiar to begin with. The traditional smiths not only usually put all their hardest pieces in what they made their edge steel from, but also the microstructures are odd from the impurities and so forth. If high hardnesses are being done reliably in a production sword using common steels, I want to see some testimonials from people who took a test file to it. I figure the "66" could easily be an innocent typo in poorly edited ad copy, trustingly repeated by the vendors using it. I'd really like to see some of the Longquan regulars among the vendors come forward and identify the source of the funny-looking folded steel blades. I'm sure it's no mystery to some of them.
|
|
|
Post by connorclarke on Jun 7, 2017 20:33:34 GMT
You rarely get 66HRC knives let alone swords lol. Oh, you can find that sort of thing in the edges of some nihonto, but they are metallugically peculiar to begin with. The traditional smiths not only usually put all their hardest pieces in what they made their edge steel from, but also the microstructures are odd from the impurities and so forth. If high hardnesses are being done reliably in a production sword using common steels, I want to see some testimonials from people who took a test file to it. I figure the "66" could easily be an innocent typo in poorly edited ad copy, trustingly repeated by the vendors using it. I'd really like to see some of the Longquan regulars among the vendors come forward and identify the source of the funny-looking folded steel blades. I'm sure it's no mystery to some of them. I'm not entirely convinced. It's sounds to me like some random b.s. put there by some Longquan vendors, some of whom are flat out crooks, and attached this to there sales pitch to those who don't know any better an just assume that a higher HRC means a better sword. No, that is incorrect. Anything much above 60 becomes increasingly brittle and hard. Unless you can hear treat a blade with modern steel to also have a high about of flexibility in order to absorb impact an edge that high would frequently chip and break. You can't achieve good results with plain old Iron sand tamehagane, which is why modern steel is so advanced and valuable. I would however like to see some evidence to support the claims of Nihonto having such a high HRC and if those swords were practically functional as weapons and not for instance, ceremonial pieces.
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Jun 8, 2017 1:23:09 GMT
Oh, you can find that sort of thing in the edges of some nihonto, but they are metallugically peculiar to begin with. The traditional smiths not only usually put all their hardest pieces in what they made their edge steel from, but also the microstructures are odd from the impurities and so forth. If high hardnesses are being done reliably in a production sword using common steels, I want to see some testimonials from people who took a test file to it. I figure the "66" could easily be an innocent typo in poorly edited ad copy, trustingly repeated by the vendors using it. I'd really like to see some of the Longquan regulars among the vendors come forward and identify the source of the funny-looking folded steel blades. I'm sure it's no mystery to some of them. I'm not entirely convinced. It's sounds to me like some random b.s. put there by some Longquan vendors, some of whom are flat out crooks, and attached this to there sales pitch to those who don't know any better an just assume that a higher HRC means a better sword. No, that is incorrect. Anything much above 60 becomes increasingly brittle and hard. Unless you can hear treat a blade with modern steel to also have a high about of flexibility in order to absorb impact an edge that high would frequently chip and break. You can't achieve good results with plain old Iron sand tamehagane, which is why modern steel is so advanced and valuable. I would however like to see some evidence to support the claims of Nihonto having such a high HRC and if those swords were practically functional as weapons and not for instance, ceremonial pieces. I was giving the folks at Kris the benefit of the doubt. They're in the USA (albeit Californians ). Real nihonto do frequently have edges in the mid-60's (I've seen some published numbers in the 70's), which is why they hold such hellaciously sharp edges. I know. I have some. I also know that you treat them like obsidian, and don't let the cutting edge contact any other objects by accident. There were some embarrassing incidents published during Edo times involving overdone Shinto fancy hamon blades. My favorite is the samurai whose sword broke while playfully parrying his kid's bokken. Busting them on fences and teahouse gateposts were other noted forms of public bushi stupidity. The koto blades like I buy hold up better, but you still treat them carefully, because they were never designed for chopping wood, or promiscuously hacking whatever choppable crap you find in your backyards. They were designed to carefully and professionally slice people with. The cutting edges are fragile. And they were done with different grades of "plain old Iron sand tamehagane", which, when forged and properly quenched, just happens to contain all sorts of highly advanced carbon and carbide nanostructures that the old Japanese smiths never knew were there, but produced on a repeatable basis. I could believe a carbon steel/spring steel composite having the properties claimed, particularly if some controlled heat treat is involved. The Chinese blades I have similar to the KC blades are quite strong and sharp enough, and differentially tempered/quenched in some way (A Nicholson file cuts the mune, but slides off the edge), however the edges are closer to 60 than 66, IMHO.
|
|
|
Post by ambulocetus on Jun 8, 2017 4:44:10 GMT
Interesting discussion, folks. Now let me tell you why I was asking. I found a really nice set of fittings on eBay that I want to use for a project, and I found a good deal on a Hanwei Renshu. But once I got it I realized that it's not going to look right with these fittings. I need something with a slim sugata and some niku, so I'm thinking of taking a chance with Cheness, or saving up until I can get a Hanbon or a TFW. Unless I can find an old style KC, but no telling when one of those will pop up. But I guess I have two projects now, because that Renshu needs a new tsuka. The stock ones are terrible.
|
|
Kuya
Registered
Posts: 1,396
|
Post by Kuya on Jun 8, 2017 16:04:13 GMT
Out of the brands you mentioned, go with TFW's katana if you're looking for something like an original KC. Unless anything has changed (which it doesn't look like from their website), the TFW katana come from the same forge as the "OG" Kris Cutlery katana.
As for the Chinese line, I was at KC picking up a 26A when the first generation Kambun line was being released. For a 25" blade, it felt rather blade-heavy. That may be because of an over-abundance of niku, but I didn't take measurements.
|
|
|
Post by ambulocetus on Jun 16, 2017 2:21:51 GMT
Well, I've been thinking about this for a few days. Unfortunately, TFW doesn't have the katana on their website any more. And Bladecultureusa seems a bit over-priced. I think what I will do is hit the pawn shops and garage sales over the summer, then if I can't find anything interesting, will either get a Cheness Shirasaya or a Huawei Heavy Niku in shirasaya. Those seem to be the only blades with a geometry close to traditional. My final question for this thread: which one would be better for a gunto replica that will only see occasional use?
|
|
Kuya
Registered
Posts: 1,396
|
Post by Kuya on Jun 16, 2017 10:55:06 GMT
Unless they've stepped up their game, don't bother with Cheness.
|
|
addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
|
Post by addertooth on Jun 30, 2017 13:00:41 GMT
As a reference for hardness a file typically maxes out at a Rockwell C scale of 65. Files are considered about as hard as you want to make a steel, which you have no intent of smacking/striking an object with. I have literally shattered a file before by dropping it onto a cement floor. I have heat treated a specialty knife to Rockwell 62 before; it was a serious pain to sharpen. Typically I would harden to Rockwell C scale of 58; it would sharpen to hair-splitting sharpness.
|
|
|
Post by ambulocetus on Jun 30, 2017 22:23:52 GMT
My grandfather was a machinist. He made a knife out of an old file and that sucker is tough. Back in the day I took it to work when I was a Teppan Yaki cook. The other guys would sharpen their knives every day, mine needed it maybe once a week. I still have it and it is still sharp. When it was new it was slightly prone to surface rust, but now it has a nice patina.
|
|