|
Post by Derzis on Mar 20, 2017 1:55:08 GMT
?? It seems to me like Jammer isn't upset by anything Lindy said, but found something irrelevant to the video to be angry over? I might be missing something very relevant though. I'm not sure. Reading Jammer's post again, it seems like he disregarded everything in Lindy's video except for the word katana, references to the katana, ignored the longsword in the video, and assumed Lindy was proclaiming himself to be an expert JSA swordsman. So it may be that they're both correct. Two JSA practitioners making kesa giri at each other might well kill each other. But two HEMAists casting oberhaus at each other from RVT will meet on the edge in the classic manner. I've done it thousands of times at this point with longswords and arming swords. You know the story in that video? The guy who's doing the kata perceives an enemy with sword almost up in the air preparing to cut him. He uses the upward cut to slice and stop his opponent's attack and right after is killing him with a kesa, cutting him in 2 more or less. This is the short version, the position of his opponent will develop variants in timing at some point in time. What you thought you are looking at? It's a iai kata, 99.99% of the time you will never use same 1st technic with the opponent just because if you are late in understanding his intention you can't catch up.
|
|
|
Post by Richard Arias on Mar 20, 2017 2:54:16 GMT
Do you understand English at all? Did you read my first post with the videos? I dont agree with Nakamura on the subject of Shinchokugiri being inferior. And while his battle groin story is a matter of record as is his assistant cutting his knee in kesa my point was that is something that can happen and should not influence others beliefs because of one Sensei. And while Nakamura was in a few battles during the Manchuria war he has no confirmed kills noted other than cattle towards the end of the world war. You overstated your knowledge of Toyama and I gave gave people more depth of knowledge. Kesa heavy Toyama exists in only 1 of 3 lines and not in the original Gunto Soho in volume. This also goes into when, why where that I keep mentioning. But that is my point and the Guy who made the videos point. You keep saying "I was always taught". Never saying "in my experience". You keep flaunting a style belief without any sure sense of why, when and where this train of thought came to be integrated into your schools ideals. So unless you are willing to actually pay attention and understand what is being discussed stop posting like you have some idea of what Im talking about. Because your posts just show a want to Rant and spread misinformation about a Style and concept you dont train in. Unlike many many koryu schools I can show a student variations in Gunto Soho and Toyama with the context of why the Nakamura and Tanabe lines made personal preference signature changes to forms and fighting concept. I can narrow down the Where, When and Why because the founders of Both Batto styles wrote about it and explained their influences. Just as I can explain my preference and help a student find theirs. I dont want to argue. You not really making sense because I am not sure you grasp much of what is being said. Im not interested in a style tunnel vision debate with you. More so since you cant express any original insight or ideas in your thinking. You just keep trying to open a can of worms. Tameshigiri is an important part of syllabus for Toyama Ryu? It is. When executing tameshigiri what cut is used quite often? Kesa. I overstated nothing. Kata in TR is full of kesa cuts: 1st kata : gyaku kesa followed by kesa 2nd kata: nukitsuke to the right followed by kesa 3rd kata: tsuki to the left, ukenagashi parry and kesa while retreating 4th kata: turning one handed kesa, end with kesa 5th kata: assassination kata, taking out the sword silently and kill tree opponents with 3 kesa - with some stretch is a variant of an Okuden kata. 6th kata: 2 opponents kata, turning to the back, ukenagashi block, kesa followed by turn and kill the second with kesa 7th kata: 3 opponents kata, one handed cut to the right, kesa to the left and tsuki in front. - variant of SEITEI Sanpogiri 8th kata: execution kata - some can call it testing the sword on human body(ies) which is a part of an older kata. The way the sageo is tightened is MSR relic and the chiburi in the end of each kata is also a cut. I have no idea about TR, not even that some are using sword dipping tip while preparing the cut - Jikiden influence - and some Sensei ask the student to keep the sword parallel to the floor while preparing the cut - Shinden influence. Or that the lingering hand on tsuka after chiburi is a reminiscence of "being ready to start again" from koryu. Or that the noto is jikiden influence. I don't know english or understand videos. I will not use "in my experience (add years here)" because these words mean nothing and give no leverage what so ever. The fun in all this is that in 50 years from now TR kata will be considered koryu and not many instructors will be capable to say what those kata mean - what the scenario was when they were created. The fact that some of these kata are talking about scenarios showing a (resemblance) of fight sword vs sword when the army opponents were sword-less it shows how deep the roots are in the tradition, a tradition you ignore. Your personal vendetta with your ex-senseis or even inside the art I presume you teach based on your signature is not my problem. Again your just showing a lack of knowledge and attention span. NAKAMURA HA toyama uses kesa in the kata order you listed. Morinaga and Yamaguchi ha toyama as well as the Original Gunto Soho use Shinchokugiri more often in place of Kesa in Katas. Watch the video links if your going to pretend you have an idea of Toyama. I dont ignore the history. Or have any problems with my teachers. Your the one making ignorant claims about Toyama and not really getting any point being made. Its like talking to an automated phone system where I am hoping to reach the real thinking individual rather than the crude cut and paste robotic replies you keep throwing out. For your information there are kumitachi taught in Toyama dojo that are sword v.s spear. And during the war it is a matter of record that the Toyama academy and Nakamura later used Tankendo and Jukendo kumitachi to fill in gaps in sword training because Bayonets were the tools of the day in the trenches for allied troops. And kendo was a regular part of training. Officers in the sword squads were known to use a Gunto in one hand and the Nambu pistol in the other. Not in the Kata, but technique seen on the field. But your doing what most people with your mindset do. You see a set of modern Toyama Iai and think "yup thats what toyama is like". Having not a clue that those forms are modified from the original and the intent of training isn't even the same(even after I showed you video comparisons and said it multiple times...I mean come on man). Same as you see Muso and Jikiden kata today and think that the techniques and training is the same as the old days. They aren't... but you dont know any better... just what your sensei told you. We dont have to wait 50 years. You already made the same clueless remarks you were just saying are funny. And the irony is you still wont get any of this probably. You will just go on thinking you have a firm handle on things.
|
|
Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
|
Post by Ifrit on Mar 20, 2017 2:59:26 GMT
?? It seems to me like Jammer isn't upset by anything Lindy said, but found something irrelevant to the video to be angry over? I might be missing something very relevant though. I'm not sure. Reading Jammer's post again, it seems like he disregarded everything in Lindy's video except for the word katana, references to the katana, ignored the longsword in the video, and assumed Lindy was proclaiming himself to be an expert JSA swordsman. I think Jammer understands JSA, so his posts are through that lens and terminology. Lindy probably overstated the case by not restricting himself to longswords or European schools in general. So we have people talking past each other. Jammer criticizes Lindy as if Lindy were demonstrating JSA, and Lindy doesn't make it clear he's speaking in terms of HEMA. Sometimes I don't know if Jammer is willing to believe there *are* other sword fighting systems outside the wee island. I can assure him that a proper covering oberhau from vom tag is not a suicidal attack. While "kesa giri" is from what I understand a more simple diagonal attack made with a different weapon and a different axis of rotation back on the shoulders. This type of attack is NOT the same as our oberhau. It isn't a covering blow. It's far more exposed and dangerous. It also lacks the footwork of an oberhau in vor. Lindy didn't help matters by making a crude chopping gesture instead of having someone demonstrate the covering blow with a longsword. So it may be that they're both correct. Two JSA practitioners making kesa giri at each other might well kill each other. But two HEMAists casting oberhaus at each other from RVT will meet on the edge in the classic manner. I've done it thousands of times at this point with longswords and arming swords. That actually clears it up for me. That is one assumption i was having, only with far less knowledge about either art behind it
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Mar 20, 2017 16:15:32 GMT
So it may be that they're both correct. Two JSA practitioners making kesa giri at each other might well kill each other. But two HEMAists casting oberhaus at each other from RVT will meet on the edge in the classic manner. I've done it thousands of times at this point with longswords and arming swords. You know the story in that video? The guy who's doing the kata perceives an enemy with sword almost up in the air preparing to cut him. He uses the upward cut to slice and stop his opponent's attack and right after is killing him with a kesa, cutting him in 2 more or less. This is the short version, the position of his opponent will develop variants in timing at some point in time. What you thought you are looking at? It's a iai kata, 99.99% of the time you will never use same 1st technic with the opponent just because if you are late in understanding his intention you can't catch up. This is what I was responding to "A kesa giri, as a first strike, is unheard of, and entirely surrenders the Centre Line. " The point is that "kesa giri" appears to have no relationship to the oberhau from right vom tag, or to any covering blow. It isn't covering the line with the attack. So it makes sense in context that it would not bind against any edge. I think Jammer was imagining Lindy's hacking motion from his right shoulder to be something it wasn't, and then getting upset at the conclusion about edge binding. To be more detailed, the oberhau from right vom tag typically starts with fingers squeezing the pommel from the shoulder guard. This moves the blade forward on a rotation point ABOVE the hands. This is critical. The oberhau is not to be delivered hands first with a rotation point on the shoulders or arms. The sword tips forward and at that point the arms push out. they do not SWING DOWN. They push OUT. The right arm basically punches, with the left pulling back at or near the pommel. At this point the right leg swings forward in a step that will change the angle of attack by a few degrees to the opponent's left. If the opponent cuts straight at you, he will hit air and you will cleave his head. The sword is then accelerated by the push-pull of right and left hand and hits. Around this time the step is completed. I was trained to dip the pommel as well as part of this, to ensure the blade tip scribes a nearly straight line even as it is rotating. It took about two years for me to get it down. The gloss in vom danzig IIRC is the source telling us to imagine cutting the face in half with the blade entering the left temple and exiting through the right side of the chin. Faces are a favorite target because they were often unarmored and tend to end fights quickly. That is the basic cut from right shoulder guard (vom tag). It covers the center and will sweep through it. If the opponent is answering with a suitable counter or a mirror vom tag oberhau, the edges meet.
|
|
SeanF
Member
Posts: 1,293
|
Post by SeanF on Mar 20, 2017 16:45:43 GMT
"The sword is then accelerated by the push-pull of right and left hand and hits." The push-pull mechanic leads to a very weak structure and is highly detrimental to effective cuts. Both arms should be moving together to create a strong structure. You don't have to take my word for it, every HEMA practitioner who has done well in a cutting event will also be adamant about this point.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Mar 20, 2017 17:14:55 GMT
The goal of a cutting tournament is fundamentally different from a fight. Tatami doesn't hit back. Let's take this example. at 0:40 you see Jake taking a long time to make a huge strike from high VT into horizontal mats. His goal is to powerhouse through as many as possible. Would Jake EVER enter measure with such a strike--chest forward and back thrown into the axe-hew? Almost certainly not.
I realize there are disagreements about the nuances of cut mechanics and I was explaining how I was taught, but the fundamentals are not really in dispute. If you don't want to die in the fight, your cut better be clearing the center in front of your body or you'd better be creating a new center.
There are also artifacts of heavy HEMA gear to consider. The method of fine control including push-pull I've learned simply does not work with heavy SPES or similar gauntlets on. So other methods have been developed to create covering blows.
And most fundamentally of all, with a fight your goal is to take the line and kill your opponent. It is not to simply make a clean cut through an obstacle. In many cases you must not overcut--as in the zorn ort. Control is all important.
|
|
SeanF
Member
Posts: 1,293
|
Post by SeanF on Mar 20, 2017 17:58:48 GMT
In order to have any sort of success in a cutting tournament you must create a strike that can, at the very least, get through some wet grass. If someone is using mechanics that cannot get through a bundle of wet grass one would wonder how effective this person could actually be in a Real FightTM. And people who do cut have very conclusively come to the conclusion that the push-pull motion causes cuts to fail.
There are many ways do cover a line while cutting. I'm not on a sword collectors forum to argue, so for anyone else reading this I would encourage you to look at what the results of the push-pull vs solid structure produce when actually trying to make a sharp sword do it's job.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Mar 20, 2017 18:26:01 GMT
It's a tangent, but an interesting one. I suspect that if we got together and you showed me what you were calling "push pull" I would agree it's a very bad idea. My "push pull" comes in as a result of the need to keep the rotation on the blade as it moves forward. It may be stronger to cut with a lower balance point on the body--Jake's was on his shoulders--but it's not a valid martial move for entry into a fight for obvious reasons. So you have to compromise some of that power to ensure that your blade is the first thing the other guy's blade hits. This is the kind I'm talking about: myarmoury.com/feature_arms_gls.htmlWe should probably dump the current cutting tournament system in favor of applying the three wounders at full speed from various positions. Otherwise it's not really giving us much useful information apart from showing what we already know. There's no western text that says you have to cut hard enough to get through a fricking torso. Hew one neck tendon and it's game over. I.33, the Liechtenauer tradition, Fiore and the others focus on precise attacks to control centers, not on mighty blows. The strike of wrath itself spends the energy getting the center, and then stabs forward. And a stab needs no great force to kill. I'd like to see a tournament where the competitors are forced into very awkward positions and have to make the best cut they can. So for example set it up so that the competitor is doing a counter zwerch within the time it would take to execute that move, as calculated by stopwatch. The move must cover the line and deliver a fatal blow to a head simulator. That would be fun. But right now folks still feel a need to basically prove longswords against the k-word so they want to do the simple cutting drills.
|
|
|
Post by Derzis on Mar 20, 2017 23:18:26 GMT
Tameshigiri is an important part of syllabus for Toyama Ryu? It is. When executing tameshigiri what cut is used quite often? Kesa. I overstated nothing. Kata in TR is full of kesa cuts: 1st kata : gyaku kesa followed by kesa 2nd kata: nukitsuke to the right followed by kesa 3rd kata: tsuki to the left, ukenagashi parry and kesa while retreating 4th kata: turning one handed kesa, end with kesa 5th kata: assassination kata, taking out the sword silently and kill tree opponents with 3 kesa - with some stretch is a variant of an Okuden kata. 6th kata: 2 opponents kata, turning to the back, ukenagashi block, kesa followed by turn and kill the second with kesa 7th kata: 3 opponents kata, one handed cut to the right, kesa to the left and tsuki in front. - variant of SEITEI Sanpogiri 8th kata: execution kata - some can call it testing the sword on human body(ies) which is a part of an older kata. The way the sageo is tightened is MSR relic and the chiburi in the end of each kata is also a cut. I have no idea about TR, not even that some are using sword dipping tip while preparing the cut - Jikiden influence - and some Sensei ask the student to keep the sword parallel to the floor while preparing the cut - Shinden influence. Or that the lingering hand on tsuka after chiburi is a reminiscence of "being ready to start again" from koryu. Or that the noto is jikiden influence. I don't know english or understand videos. I will not use "in my experience (add years here)" because these words mean nothing and give no leverage what so ever. The fun in all this is that in 50 years from now TR kata will be considered koryu and not many instructors will be capable to say what those kata mean - what the scenario was when they were created. The fact that some of these kata are talking about scenarios showing a (resemblance) of fight sword vs sword when the army opponents were sword-less it shows how deep the roots are in the tradition, a tradition you ignore. Your personal vendetta with your ex-senseis or even inside the art I presume you teach based on your signature is not my problem. Again your just showing a lack of knowledge and attention span. NAKAMURA HA toyama uses kesa in the kata order you listed. Morinaga and Yamaguchi ha toyama as well as the Original Gunto Soho use Shinchokugiri more often in place of Kesa in Katas. Watch the video links if your going to pretend you have an idea of Toyama. I dont ignore the history. Or have any problems with my teachers. Your the one making ignorant claims about Toyama and not really getting any point being made. Its like talking to an automated phone system where I am hoping to reach the real thinking individual rather than the crude cut and paste robotic replies you keep throwing out. For your information there are kumitachi taught in Toyama dojo that are sword v.s spear. And during the war it is a matter of record that the Toyama academy and Nakamura later used Tankendo and Jukendo kumitachi to fill in gaps in sword training because Bayonets were the tools of the day in the trenches for allied troops. And kendo was a regular part of training. Officers in the sword squads were known to use a Gunto in one hand and the Nambu pistol in the other. Not in the Kata, but technique seen on the field. But your doing what most people with your mindset do. You see a set of modern Toyama Iai and think "yup thats what toyama is like". Having not a clue that those forms are modified from the original and the intent of training isn't even the same(even after I showed you video comparisons and said it multiple times...I mean come on man). Same as you see Muso and Jikiden kata today and think that the techniques and training is the same as the old days. They aren't... but you dont know any better... just what your sensei told you. We dont have to wait 50 years. You already made the same clueless remarks you were just saying are funny. And the irony is you still wont get any of this probably. You will just go on thinking you have a firm handle on things. You understood nothing from what I said, but is normal after all. You go for words in a debate, not ideas. When I answered "word to word" dialog, I am clueless and you are the master. I am OK with this, how about you? You told me I am wrong because kesa is just in 2 katas, and I argued that kesa is more than just in 2 katas. Forget the number of katas with kesa. The main idea in these katas - "no frills quick kill" - is supported in intense practice - tameshigiri. In tameshigiri diagonal downward or upward cuts are the salt and pepper of the dish. I can see why what a koryu guy created in the beginning (maybe straight downward cuts for all katas since is what he used in jikiden) changed to kesa in time. It was a dichotomy between katas and training that was solved in a way or another, for better or worst. The irony of this entire debate is that kesa is just another cut, not more important than others if you don't take in consideration what you intend to cut. I will answer with a question to your "funny part" and "you do what your sensei is telling you": Have you ever tried to understand why in 1st kata you are unsheathing the sword with an upward diagonal cut but you keep the kissaki toward the target? You don't do it because you cut someone. You are stepping forward before cutting from above (straight or diagonal is not important). Stepping forward after presumingly cutting the opponent is putting you too close to your already damaged target to send him to oblivion efficient. And natural movement of the swing will put your kissaki up in the sky, not pointing to the opponent. I don't expect to receive an answer though since you never saw that (you do what your teacher's says mantra) You never answered when I asked how "kesa changed" anyway, but I expect a lot of other things with no relation to the question. And I see TR way more favourable than you see it* because in a way, it reminds me katas from Okuden - at least the part of TR I was shown and taught. It's not koryu, but it's interesting - it brings new things on the plate that are not contradicting japanese way of approaching the sword fighting. * You said you dind't like a set of katas and asked your sensei to teach you another set.
|
|
|
Post by Derzis on Mar 20, 2017 23:29:48 GMT
You know the story in that video? The guy who's doing the kata perceives an enemy with sword almost up in the air preparing to cut him. He uses the upward cut to slice and stop his opponent's attack and right after is killing him with a kesa, cutting him in 2 more or less. This is the short version, the position of his opponent will develop variants in timing at some point in time. What you thought you are looking at? It's a iai kata, 99.99% of the time you will never use same 1st technic with the opponent just because if you are late in understanding his intention you can't catch up. This is what I was responding to "A kesa giri, as a first strike, is unheard of, and entirely surrenders the Centre Line. " The point is that "kesa giri" appears to have no relationship to the oberhau from right vom tag, or to any covering blow. It isn't covering the line with the attack. So it makes sense in context that it would not bind against any edge. I think Jammer was imagining Lindy's hacking motion from his right shoulder to be something it wasn't, and then getting upset at the conclusion about edge binding. You read when I said is iaido kata? Iaido is not giving the measure on how a technic is used. You have a pool of technics for a curved two handed sword. Saying that you will never use an attacking technic EVER because it is an unwritten law is non-sense to me. If you see the opening for a diagonal attack even in 1 to 100000 encounters, it is not 0. And just an anecdote, this straight downward cut vs diagonal cut is the mockery subject between iaidoka and kenjutsu practitioners.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Mar 21, 2017 0:45:27 GMT
I agree, but I was responding to Jammer's post.
I think we all need to spar more often. All traditions, without all the egos.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2017 2:27:43 GMT
I don't see that working out very well for schools that are focused on teaching you to destroy your opponent instead of acquit yourself honorably. If the form ends at a certain point, it ends there. Without the form, it goes until the threat's gone and if somebody calling himself a judge jabs a stick in between us that just means I'm dealing with multiple attackers now
|
|
|
Post by Richard Arias on Mar 21, 2017 7:20:02 GMT
Again your just showing a lack of knowledge and attention span. NAKAMURA HA toyama uses kesa in the kata order you listed. Morinaga and Yamaguchi ha toyama as well as the Original Gunto Soho use Shinchokugiri more often in place of Kesa in Katas. Watch the video links if your going to pretend you have an idea of Toyama. I dont ignore the history. Or have any problems with my teachers. Your the one making ignorant claims about Toyama and not really getting any point being made. Its like talking to an automated phone system where I am hoping to reach the real thinking individual rather than the crude cut and paste robotic replies you keep throwing out. For your information there are kumitachi taught in Toyama dojo that are sword v.s spear. And during the war it is a matter of record that the Toyama academy and Nakamura later used Tankendo and Jukendo kumitachi to fill in gaps in sword training because Bayonets were the tools of the day in the trenches for allied troops. And kendo was a regular part of training. Officers in the sword squads were known to use a Gunto in one hand and the Nambu pistol in the other. Not in the Kata, but technique seen on the field. But your doing what most people with your mindset do. You see a set of modern Toyama Iai and think "yup thats what toyama is like". Having not a clue that those forms are modified from the original and the intent of training isn't even the same(even after I showed you video comparisons and said it multiple times...I mean come on man). Same as you see Muso and Jikiden kata today and think that the techniques and training is the same as the old days. They aren't... but you dont know any better... just what your sensei told you. We dont have to wait 50 years. You already made the same clueless remarks you were just saying are funny. And the irony is you still wont get any of this probably. You will just go on thinking you have a firm handle on things. You understood nothing from what I said, but is normal after all. You go for words in a debate, not ideas. When I answered "word to word" dialog, I am clueless and you are the master. I am OK with this, how about you? You told me I am wrong because kesa is just in 2 katas, and I argued that kesa is more than just in 2 katas. Forget the number of katas with kesa. The main idea in these katas - "no frills quick kill" - is supported in intense practice - tameshigiri. In tameshigiri diagonal downward or upward cuts are the salt and pepper of the dish. I can see why what a koryu guy created in the beginning (maybe straight downward cuts for all katas since is what he used in jikiden) changed to kesa in time. It was a dichotomy between katas and training that was solved in a way or another, for better or worst. The irony of this entire debate is that kesa is just another cut, not more important than others if you don't take in consideration what you intend to cut. I will answer with a question to your "funny part" and "you do what your sensei is telling you": Have you ever tried to understand why in 1st kata you are unsheathing the sword with an upward diagonal cut but you keep the kissaki toward the target? You don't do it because you cut someone. You are stepping forward before cutting from above (straight or diagonal is not important). Stepping forward after presumingly cutting the opponent is putting you too close to your already damaged target to send him to oblivion efficient. And natural movement of the swing will put your kissaki up in the sky, not pointing to the opponent. I don't expect to receive an answer though since you never saw that (you do what your teacher's says mantra) You never answered when I asked how "kesa changed" anyway, but I expect a lot of other things with no relation to the question. And I see TR way more favourable than you see it* because in a way, it reminds me katas from Okuden - at least the part of TR I was shown and taught. It's not koryu, but it's interesting - it brings new things on the plate that are not contradicting japanese way of approaching the sword fighting. * You said you dind't like a set of katas and asked your sensei to teach you another set. Stop putting words in my mouth. I asked to learn the Nakamura 8 for three reasons. 1. The kata bunkai is listed by the type of cut and not a combative senario like toyama, so uses and context isn't as black and white. 2. Nakamura Ryu is less split with less variations to kata. With Toyama there is about 7 different variations in Just Nakamura Ha... lord knows how many there are in Yamaguchi or Morinaga... Basically for standard forms I dont like that Nobody can agree on the standard staring point for the Toyama. 3. Toyama kata have a number of pivot and backstep moves that are hard on my footwork with arthritis, shot joints ex. I cant really do many of the turns in Katas 3, 4 6 ex. At proper combative speed and force and be solid. So its more to the point that I can perform the Toyama 8, but with the Nakamura 8 being more liner and forward moving I am stronger with them. Its a personal preference and your making it into something else. There is no point talking to you because you dont grasp anything. I could tell you that I think draw cutting is a combative risk and I prefer the Toyama 5 approach of drawing into a position to take action rather than trying to do what Toyama 1 does. Action beats reactions for most people and the scenarios have bad habits of tradition in them assuming standard engagement when in fact that mind set does not hold with modern CQB training. But that is my personal experience. Never had to wonder about much in Toyama. Most any nakamura ha sensei will tell you that the fallow up strike after a draw cut is to teach the sword equivalent of burst gun fire or double tapping. The draw cut (in toyama 1) is aimed at the ribs in the Tanabe line assuming you only wounded your opponent you close for a kill strike. In sparring people stumble forward and back so this makes some sense. But in my experience every strike is intended to kill in one stroke, but you train in redundancy to cover your ass. When did you ask about kesa changing?.....With your odd speech its hard to know what you mean. I mentioned Kesa replaces Shinchoku in some Nakamura schools in Toyama kata. And that started to happen in '39 as Nakamura tells it. Then you went off into your tangents. Lets just stop this because im tired of reading a reply that is clearly from a persona with tunnel vision not paying attention or grasping a single thing I say. Maybe you should practice your English more if you want to have an in depth conversation because at this point it feels like I am talking to a foreign exchange student.
|
|
|
Post by Richard Arias on Mar 21, 2017 7:39:43 GMT
I agree, but I was responding to Jammer's post. I think we all need to spar more often. All traditions, without all the egos. Never happen. Same reason schools dont attended same events. Ego of Koryu thinking they are more traditional gendai arts feeling more functional ex. The lineage and teacher pissing contests. Its why the Tai Kai have died down a lot. You show up and you have all these clubs whispering and talking trash. You watch judge panels vote their own people. Its all politics and the arts die because of it. People will act how they act. I post here to correct some misinformation a poster makes about a Style he does not even train in and it becomes a big rant. Its why I dont fallow sports or talk to other people at gun ranges. People like to talk and dont really want to get down to things. But man they have opinions. Sometimes this feels as bad as Facebook. People cant just say "interesting..." and move along.
|
|
|
Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Mar 21, 2017 12:25:41 GMT
I don't see that working out very well for schools that are focused on teaching you to destroy your opponent instead of acquit yourself honorably. If the form ends at a certain point, it ends there. Without the form, it goes until the threat's gone and if somebody calling himself a judge jabs a stick in between us that just means I'm dealing with multiple attackers now If you attack a judge during a sparring fight that only means one thing: you have no control over yourself. That is a bad thing no matter what martial art you practice. I don't buy the "my style is so deadly I can't do any sparring" thing. That's a myth created by those who are afraid of having their skills tested by a resisting opponent. In my experience: no sparring = no fighting skill. How and what kind of sparring is used is a different matter of course.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2017 12:26:53 GMT
Yes, really people need to do a better job of self moderation. You need to recognize when you're not getting through, and disengage. Problem is a lot of times people try to disengage with a cute disparaging parting shot so the other guy feels like he has to respond. Emphasizing "we're not getting anywhere" instead of "you're wrong" would go a long way. Have you guys ever heard of de-escalation?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2017 12:29:14 GMT
I don't see that working out very well for schools that are focused on teaching you to destroy your opponent instead of acquit yourself honorably. If the form ends at a certain point, it ends there. Without the form, it goes until the threat's gone and if somebody calling himself a judge jabs a stick in between us that just means I'm dealing with multiple attackers now If you attack a judge during a sparring fight that only means one thing: you have no control over yourself. That is a bad thing no matter what martial art you practice. I don't buy the "my style is so deadly I can't do any sparring" thing. That's a myth created by those who are afraid of having their skills tested by a resisting opponent. In my experience: no sparring = no fighting skill. How and what kind of sparring is used is a different matter of course. LOL I will hurt someone because that is what I'm training to do, or I will lose a sparring match because I'm trying to keep him safe. I don't especially care if you think I have no fighting skill. I don't train to give up the second a sword touches me and politely head back to my starting point.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Mar 21, 2017 16:47:50 GMT
What martial art involves attacking judges? Just try things out starting slow and easy. If you're skilled in your art you can stop yourself from attacking people. And really this would have to begin as a very careful interchange given differences in custom and kit. But it could be done. We do it all the time within HEMA both padded and gearless. If dagger can be pitted against spear, then surely we can have other less dramatic contrasts successfully between weapons and traditions.
Surely your current sparring includes both official and unspoken restrictions. Your school is not fighting to the death I trust. And that means you can respect limits and do. Whether you'd have to yield when the sword touches you is something you can settle before hand. I've done sparring where a touch is a point, where only a substantial cut or thrust is counted, where we ignore them all and just keep going and where we fight to "checkmate" where no actual skin contact is made. You could agree to allow wrestling too or to not do it. I usually agree to yield at the beginning of a good wrestling move to avoid having to lay out mats and risk orthopedic injuries. But sometimes we agree to let me go Tor Johnson on the opponents within the spirit of a friendly bout of course.
If you've trained to hit really hard all the time, just gear up accordingly. I'm not a huge fan of our kit, but it will stop a full power longsword hit at this point. Maybe not a mordschlag but you guys don't do those anyway.
|
|
|
Post by jammer on Mar 21, 2017 18:45:53 GMT
So it may be that they're both correct. Two JSA practitioners making kesa giri at each other might well kill each other. But two HEMAists casting oberhaus at each other from RVT will meet on the edge in the classic manner. I've done it thousands of times at this point with longswords and arming swords. You know the story in that video? The guy who's doing the kata perceives an enemy with sword almost up in the air preparing to cut him. He uses the upward cut to slice and stop his opponent's attack and right after is killing him with a kesa, cutting him in 2 more or less. This is the short version, the position of his opponent will develop variants in timing at some point in time. What you thought you are looking at? It's a iai kata, 99.99% of the time you will never use same 1st technic with the opponent just because if you are late in understanding his intention you can't catch up. All schools have a kesa strike that starts from low, say a gedan, and sweeps up across the kesa line, which clears the centre for an expedient downward strike, which will be back along the kesa line. For example, there are three schools that stem from musashi, and these are three distinct styles from three points of time in his life. Not the 3 contested lines of hyoho niten ichi ryu, all 3 of these are seperate schools. Each of the three schools has an upward sweep along the kesa, followed by a downward strike that is a kesa cut. All the many Muso schools have a kesa cut, up, then down. the ZNKR version is in this thread, in a video. So its a common cut, but not as an attack, it should be predeeded by an upward strike, along the kesa, and the michi is to travel back down along the same line. That IS the natural downward path. All these examples are irrelevant to my initial point, which is a video, by Lindy, with an over-the-shoulder kesa strike as the attack, and indeed the premise of his theory. It is this that I am calling out.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2017 18:52:54 GMT
What martial art involves attacking judges? Just try things out starting slow and easy. If you're skilled in your art you can stop yourself from attacking people. And really this would have to begin as a very careful interchange given differences in custom and kit. But it could be done. We do it all the time within HEMA both padded and gearless. If dagger can be pitted against spear, then surely we can have other less dramatic contrasts successfully between weapons and traditions. Surely your current sparring includes both official and unspoken restrictions. Your school is not fighting to the death I trust. And that means you can respect limits and do. Whether you'd have to yield when the sword touches you is something you can settle before hand. I've done sparring where a touch is a point, where only a substantial cut or thrust is counted, where we ignore them all and just keep going and where we fight to "checkmate" where no actual skin contact is made. You could agree to allow wrestling too or to not do it. I usually agree to yield at the beginning of a good wrestling move to avoid having to lay out mats and risk orthopedic injuries. But sometimes we agree to let me go Tor Johnson on the opponents within the spirit of a friendly bout of course. If you've trained to hit really hard all the time, just gear up accordingly. I'm not a huge fan of our kit, but it will stop a full power longsword hit at this point. Maybe not a mordschlag but you guys don't do those anyway. Apologies for delay and brevity of response, new job is actually making me work. :) Its partly a tongue in cheek, but also rather true and meant to highlight different and possibly incompatible mindsets. Someone waving a quarterstaff in my face isn't a judge, it's a new opponent. Agreeing to limitations and downgrading intensity is great for training but it is not fighting. If we train together, I wholly expect you to honor my tapping to indicate I acknowledge your lock, a fight I'd expect you to destroy the limb if you can. With that in mind I don't rightly understand how anyone can hope to evaluate fighting ability from dilluted exchange. If we are training we are cooperative and focused on learning and helping each other. If we are fighting we are concerned with ensuring our survival and if it comes to it denying the other of that assurance. I'd rather not fight. We do not spar. The idea of an uncooperative training partner is kind of funny, for some reason people get really cooperative when joint locks and chokes get applied. I guess you can try to fight if dislocations and involuntary naptimes sound like a good time.
|
|