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Post by pellius on Dec 16, 2016 1:27:50 GMT
As of December 2016, KoA has 'em in stock. I'm a big fan of this sword. They kinda come and go, so if you're thinking about getting a reasonably priced good quality niuweidao that's sharp and ready to fight right out of the box, it may be worth cruising over to KoA for a look-see.
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Post by pete085 on Dec 29, 2016 10:06:23 GMT
Thanks for the Info. The Price is really good. I hope they will be in stock a bit longer. Want to buy one, but have not recieved an answer from the custom Office yet, how expensive the custom duties will be when buying an sword from the states
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pgandy
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Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Dec 29, 2016 17:36:10 GMT
Thanks for the Info. The Price is really good. I hope they will be in stock a bit longer. Want to buy one, but have not recieved an answer from the custom Office yet, how expensive the custom duties will be when buying an sword from the states Wishing you luck, it's a good one. |
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Post by esuyengh on Apr 7, 2017 19:40:56 GMT
Thanks for the Info. The Price is really good. I hope they will be in stock a bit longer. Want to buy one, but have not recieved an answer from the custom Office yet, how expensive the custom duties will be when buying an sword from the states Did you ever get one? I'm working with a smith on some custom nuweidaos, and I'd be very interested if you would be willing to provide some specs and dimensions. I here good things about the Hanwei one, so it would be a great starting point probably. |
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Post by pete085 on Apr 25, 2017 10:23:22 GMT
esuyengh Sorry for the late Reply. No i did not get it yet. I am still in the researching/deciding process. It is hard to decide between the Hanwei Ox and the Huano Oxtail. The second one is more expensive though, but have no Problem to pay more if the Quality is right, because functionaly is important to me.
Checking custom makes is probably a decent idea as well. So i would be intersted to get more info about the dao from the custom Smith you know. |
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Post by pellius on May 14, 2017 19:50:02 GMT
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 14, 2017 20:05:26 GMT
Huanuo makes the DF swords, so you should expect either similar or identical (Huanuo also makes swords for Cold Steel, so if Cold Steel did an oxtail, it would look similar).
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Post by 28shadow on May 14, 2017 20:51:14 GMT
Huanuo makes the DF swords, so you should expect either similar or identical (Huanuo also makes swords for Cold Steel, so if Cold Steel did an oxtail, it would look similar). If I'm correct, Cold Steel used to have an oxtail/willowleaf for sale. Here's their cutting demo: |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 14, 2017 22:13:52 GMT
It's been OOP for a long time. It was Huanuo-made. Never had a chance to play with one, but people who did often described it as heavy and tip-heavy, and that's exactly what the Dynasty Forge one looks like (the tip is about twice as thick as I'd want).
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Post by pellius on May 15, 2017 0:46:19 GMT
Thanks for the info.
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Post by pete085 on May 17, 2017 13:01:15 GMT
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Post by pellius on May 17, 2017 20:43:08 GMT
Nice. I've only seen it in photos and a "review" video (with no commentary), but it looks like a really nice dao.
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Post by johnc on May 29, 2017 21:51:31 GMT
I'm fond of this sword too. Everyone who has interest in Chinese martial arts or Chinese weaponry should own it. What attracts me most is its no-nonsense, handsome appearance. And of course: It will cut. (to quote someone from 'Forged in Fire') I like this sword so much that I've let it customized with leather over the wooden scabbard. Also let the fittings mirror polished:   |
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Post by esuyengh on Sept 21, 2017 18:32:18 GMT
Hi folks. So I thought I would post my fresh impressions of this Dao. First, I would like to praise KoA. They got me the blade in record time, and the whole process was painless and easy.
Unfortunately though, I'm going to have to disagree with everyone on this thread who is singing the praises of this Dao. Is it a practical, usable dao? Yes. Will it cut? Yes. Is it a step up from the flexible junk wushu blades a lot of Chinese martial artists are familiar with? Yes.
BUT in my opinion it is not historically accurate because it is far too short, the weight is wrong, and the point of balance is wrong in relation to the weight. And for those reasons I'd save the $180ish and get something a little more that is better. For reference, I have a $50 dao from the famed Garrett Chan that handles a lot more accurately than this one; it was probably originally $300ish, but it had a damaged scabbard and some minor dings on the fittings, hence the discounted price.
I've handled a lot of swords, both jian and dao, at this point. One thing that is clear is that there really isn't a set standard, especially for dao. Dao were peasant weapons, so it really varies. My teacher confirmed this recently (my classmates are currently ordering him a custom dao, so it was a struggle to give good specs to the smith).
However, to be practical and feel right, a dao should at least reach the bottom of your ear. Most competitions require it to reach the top! I'm not a tall man, only 5'7", and this dao barely goes above my shoulder when held in ready position.
And in terms of weight, a dao should be heavier than a jian. It's supposed to be handled almost like a butcher's cleaver. It is the tiger to the jian's phoenix/dragon.
And the point of balance should be adjusted to the overall weight so that it should feel to some extent like it is pulling down as you strike. The Hanwei Dao instead was neutral to me; it felt almost as bad to me as one of those spring steel wushu blades where all your power diffuses because it's so light and floppy.
Basically, in my opinion, the Dao fails on the three major points - geometry (size), weight, and point of balance.
Perhaps I'm spoiled at this point. I was able to handle the rough custom Dao being made for my teacher recently, and that thing was vicious. It was balanced well and just heavy enough to let you know it was there but not make you struggle. Of course, we can't all afford something like that.
But to me the Hanwei isn't the great deal everyone makes it out to be either. Needless to say, I'm sadly returning it to KoA. I'm going to have to use my $50 Dao for the championship. Maybe I'll try out one of the Dynasty Forge Dao in the near future.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 21, 2017 19:20:51 GMT
As you said, there is no set standard for a dao. People’s opinion will vary on this as with any other sword. Sorry you are unhappy and I hope the custom job will be all that you hope for. As for me, I like my Hanwei Oxtail. I can see how a longer blade, more weight, a different PoB, and a host of other things will change it, but the truth is that I like it as is, fast and agile and will do the job. No one sword will be right for all people and for most of us, we like Hanwei’s version.
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Post by esuyengh on Sept 21, 2017 20:39:59 GMT
I don't disagree that the final call should be personal opinion.
But I believe that, even without strict specific standards, a dao should feel significantly different than a jian, just like a dao or jian shouldn't feel like a katana (unless we are talking about Tang dao). In theory, you shouldn't be able to use a dao comfortably like a jian, but a slightly heavier dao weighted and balanced like a dao can still be ridiculously fast and agile when used like a dao. I just feel like the Hanwei dao is weighted and balanced just like a jian, with only its shape really differentiating it.
Regardless, good luck and enjoy your Hanwei dao.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 21, 2017 21:40:53 GMT
Nothing at all wrong with finding that a particular sword doesn't suit you (especially if you do a style that prescribes a longer sword), that you would prefer different weight and/or balance, or it just doesn't feel nice in your hand. But: BUT in my opinion it is not historically accurate because it is far too short, the weight is wrong, and the point of balance is wrong in relation to the weight. historical accuracy is a question of fact, not opinion. AFAICT from antiques, the Hanwei oxtail is nicely in the mid-range of antique oxtail dao. A fairly close in size/weight antique: mandarinmansion.com/quality-niuweidaoAnother: www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?62388-Niuweidao-Chinese-quot-broadsword-quot&p=1147184#post1147184A shorter and lighter antique: mandarinmansion.com/niuweidao-oxtail-saberA longer and close to the same weight antique: mandarinmansion.com/hefty-niuweidaoThere are some substantially bigger and heavier ones: www.mandarinmansion.com/chinese-oxtail-saberwww.mandarinmansion.com/chinese-oxtail-saber-guangxu-reign-mark (a monster!) but ones around the size/weight of the Hanwei are more common. I've seen very little data on POB of antique oxtail dao. My impression is that oxtails are more likely to balance in closer than other dao of similar size. With POB at 35% of total length, the Hanwei balances in a little closer than most dao, at a point that would not be unusual for a jian. However, even with the same POB, length, and weight, I find that (good) jian usually feel very different to a dao - a good jian (judging by Qing and Republican examples (sadly, not mine) and good replicas) should have the forward pivot point at the tip (like a European longsword, plenty of European cut-thrust swords (sideswords and many others)), while dao appear to me to mostly be made with no regard for where the pivot point ends up. That is, point control doesn't appear to be important for dao. For an oxtail, I think that it would be good to have the pivot point at the beginning of the "tail" (i.e., the foible in European terms), which is the "standard" balance for European sabres. (Btw, where is the pivot point on the Hanwei?) As for other types of dao, I measured a few antiques a while ago: # Length Blade Mass PoB PP 1 88cm/34.5" 71cm/28" 1210g 21cm/8" 34cm/13.5" 2 79cm/31" 66cm/26" 830g 18cm/7" 28cm/11" 3 71cm/28" 58cm/23" 620g 17cm/6.5" 26cm/10" 4 74cm/29" 58cm/23" 520g 14cm/5.5" 20cm/8" 5 74cm/29" 58cm/22.5" 850g 11cm/4.5" 21cm/8" 6 71cm/28" 52cm/20.5" 660g 15cm/6" 20cm/8" 7 46cm/18" 35cm/14" 540g 6cm/2.5" 18cm/7" 8 61cm/24" 49cm/19.5" 690g 12cm/5" 23cm/9" sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/34241/jian-dao-balanceSome nice discussion of weight and balance: forum.grtc.org/viewtopic.php?t=887However, to be practical and feel right, a dao should at least reach the bottom of your ear. Most competitions require it to reach the top! I'm not a tall man, only 5'7", and this dao barely goes above my shoulder when held in ready position. And in terms of weight, a dao should be heavier than a jian. It's supposed to be handled almost like a butcher's cleaver. It is the tiger to the jian's phoenix/dragon. You should play with a Qing cavalry dao. They certainly meet those criteria of longer, heavier, more cleaver-like. Brutal pigs of swords. Very, very different from the Hanwei oxtail. #1 in my list above is a typical Qing cavalry dao. While you might like the weight and balance of the Dynasty Forge oxtail better than the Hanwei, it isn't that much longer so it might still be too short for you. You might find that swords like the DF liueyedao and DF Manchu dao fit better (substantially lighter than Qing cavalry dao, but similar length and balance, so they might provide the "brutal" without the "pig"). Unless you need an oxtail profile for competition. |
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Post by esuyengh on Sept 22, 2017 1:17:40 GMT
Good points Timo. You are correct from pure stats that the Hanwei on paper isn't far off from a historical dao from a stats standpoint. I'm incorrect in using that term - historical accuracy.
That said, stats alone don't always equate to the same feeling from sword to sword. I still believe it doesn't feel right for traditional practice. My masters insist that a real traditional dao will pull a little towards the tip.
During design of the custom dao, I had several long discussions with my masters, sorted through a ton of dao at the school with them to pick out what felt right and wrong for my style, and this one anecdote really stuck out -
"There's this legend that sigung was always seeking out a heavier dao with more mass in the tip because every few months he would snap the tip off his current dao with just his vigorous force. He broke a 2.5 lb dao and then a 3 lb dao without even striking anything. Eventually he gave up."
I made my initial review post as a counterpoint to all the stellar reviews for prospective buyers that find this thread. I read all these reviews on here and was super excited when I ordered the dao, but the instant I unwrapped it, I was disappointed. So I'll just leave it at that story and this summation and leave it to readers to take my opinion or leave it whenever they decide if this dao is right for them -
PROS
- Solid overall construction and tight fitting scabbard
- Light and easy to handle
- Sharp
CONS
- Does not handle like a traditional dao (in my opinion)
- Too short to qualify for most traditional Chinese competitions
- Too insubstantial to me
- Too balance-neutral to me instead of pulling properly towards the tip
- The finish on the scabbard was uneven; I think they were going for a lacquer look but instead it came off as plastic and fake looking, detracting from the real wood underneath
RECOMMENDATION
Not recommended. I would not recommend this dao, except maybe to wushu practitioners looking for an upgrade. If you do a traditional style and your style dictates some heft and a dao that pulls a little towards the tip, this is not the dao for you. If your traditional style is OK with a neutrally balanced dao, then it might work for you. Regardless, I highly recommend KoA, as the store was quick and reliable and processed my return request immediately.
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Post by esuyengh on Sept 22, 2017 1:29:43 GMT
You should play with a Qing cavalry dao. They certainly meet those criteria of longer, heavier, more cleaver-like. Brutal pigs of swords. Very, very different from the Hanwei oxtail. #1 in my list above is a typical Qing cavalry dao. While you might like the weight and balance of the Dynasty Forge oxtail better than the Hanwei, it isn't that much longer so it might still be too short for you. You might find that swords like the DF liueyedao and DF Manchu dao fit better (substantially lighter than Qing cavalry dao, but similar length and balance, so they might provide the "brutal" without the "pig"). Unless you need an oxtail profile for competition. P.s. Thanks for the recommendations. If I can find some place to try them in person, I definitely will. I can't keep ordering them, or I'll go broke on shipping lol. My school focuses on oxtail dao. We have two dao for the students at our school that are in particular favorites. One is as long as a standard jian but shaped like an oxtail. It is not meant for cutting so it runs from 2 or 3 mm the whole length with little taper towards the cutting edge, so needless to say, it has heft towards the tip because of the flair of the tail. It's old, but not that old. The other is a practice waster as short as the Hanwei, but it is made out of some sort of really heavy pewter-like steel. We joke (and maybe are right) that it is some sort of lead mix and is slowly killing us with exposure. Because of the build, while it doesn't pull as much as the previous dao towards the tip, the weight lets you know it is there. This came over from HK way back in the 60's. I'll have to keep looking, but I may end up just going custom once my funds rebuild. This is the custom dao being built for the younger master: Custom Oxtail DaoFor reference, here's a pic of the dao blade next to two custom jian blades: Dao Scale The jian right next to the dao is an extra long jian for the older master, who is much taller. The next jian is about average (32" blade for an overall 39" total size). The last blade is actually a bastard sword. |
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Post by pellius on Sept 22, 2017 2:58:03 GMT
Thanks for the great info and discussion, guys. I really appreciate the insight. Esuyengh: A quick question - you seemed surprised by the Hanwei's dimensions and weight upon receipt. Were the specs on yours different than KoA's listed info? Just curious - no criticism or disrespect intended. I agree that the Hanwei is a short oxtail in relation to the stature of a modern westerner. It does not seem to be intended to meet rules for forms competition. My particular school does not emphasize form competitions, and I don't know whether various sanctioning bodies permit sharps in competition. For example: www.kungfuchampionship.com/rules.htmlFor me, the Hanwei functions nicely in practice, even though I generally prefer a more substantial/heavy sword. I have found that it cuts very well, even against heavier targets. Regarding the feel, KoA lists the pob at 6". As stated many times, pob is only one number related to a sword's handling. However, KoA also indicates substantial distal taper for the Hanwei. (KoA's stats closely match my example.) www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SH1011&name=Hanwei+Chinese+Oxtail+Dao+BroadswordKoA lists the DF blade as being only about 1 1/2 inches longer than the Hanwei blade, but the sword overall weighs about 9 ounces (i.e., over half a pound) more, and a pob about an inch further out. The KoA stats seem to indicate a lot less distal taper than the Hanwei (inferring from two data points). I've never handled the DF oxtail, but the stats roughly match my liuyedao, which leans close to "pig" territory in handling (when used like an oxtail). www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=DF014&name=Dynasty+Forge+Chinese+Oxtail+Saber+%2D+Niu+Wei+DaoSinosword/JKOO lists their oxtail as having a blade length of 73cm (about 28 3/4"), or about 3 3/4 inches longer than the Hanwei blade, yet overall weighs in at about an ounce less than the DF. It also costs a little less than the DF (and probably a lot less than a full custom). And it's pretty. www.sinosword.com/Niuwei-Dao-oxtail-sword.htmlIt's not really my intent to offer advice, since pretty much everyone here knows a lot more than I do. That being said... Of these three, the JKOO example looks like it would fit your criteria best. Thoughts? |
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