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Post by esuyengh on Oct 28, 2016 5:17:09 GMT
Hi, in my search to find a tassel, I happened across jians made by Shen Guanglong via the Wing Lam Enterprise website. It's ironic because my sifu had mentioned Wing Lam advertising really expensive swords in Kung Fu Magazine just a week or two ago, and I tucked it in the back of my mind. But bam, crossed the path of Wing Lam while searching this forum for tassels, and it all just kind of rung a bell in my head. So my question is, has anyone actually handled one of the higher end blades by Shen Guanglong? How does it compare to some of the production blades like the Huanou and Hanwei blades? Or even SBG Forge Direct blades? Most of the higher end ones mention full tangs and sharpened edges in damascus, and the dimensions and weight seem about right for a cutting blade. Searching on this forum and Google returns a few hits, but nothing particularly detailed. WLE has a wide range of these blades, some as expensive as $5K like this one www.wle.com/product5555.html. Most are in the $1K range like www.wle.com/products/PeonySword.html. Any impressions? |
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Post by william m on Oct 28, 2016 9:58:56 GMT
Seems like a massive rip off to me.. 1 to 5K for a sword made in china? Hahahaha...
There is some decent photography there but I see nothing about these swords as to why they would cost so much, they are not particualy nice and I would never buy a sword for that much money without knowing exact handling characteristics etc..
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Post by Taiwandeutscher on Oct 28, 2016 12:52:34 GMT
If I spend a few hundred or even over 1000 $, I want historical acuracy, a very durable and sharpened blade, which can hold an edge when cutting. Acid treated blades might look nice, but that doesn't say anything of their quality.
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Post by esuyengh on Oct 28, 2016 14:02:35 GMT
Seems like a massive rip off to me.. 1 to 5K for a sword made in china? Hahahaha... There is some decent photography there but I see nothing about these swords as to why they would cost so much, they are not particualy nice and I would never buy a sword for that much money without knowing exact handling characteristics etc.. I agree about having to know about a sword's handling characteristics before buying it, which is why I'm hoping someone on here might have had a chance to handle these blades. I'm not sure if I agree about the $1K to $5K comment though. I've handled a lot of the sub-$1K jian, and they are definitely great, like the average Huanou and Hanwei blades. I feel like though that there are some blades out there over $1K that are worth it, even when made in China. I believe that most of the SBG Forge Direct jian come from China, and some of those are over $1K. The one I owned was definitely worth the price of admission, as the build quality and luxury of the jian justified the price. The Huanou blade I owned was sub-$1K, but some of the more luxurious ones push $1K. When Chris Zhou (Zhou Zheng Wu) was exporting blades to the US, his jian generally pushed $2.5K, although admittedly it looked like they didn't test well. I think it's a lot like music. A lot of people don't realize that it does matter how expensive your instrument is, and that how you play will actually reflect to some degree the instrument you use regularly. Back in high school, I competed on a national level and was the only competitor using an instrument significantly under $10K. Most of these high school musicians, high school mind you, had $40K plus instruments, and that was still considered cheap by the pros. And yes, it was obvious on recordings. I know this isn't an exact equivalency, but I guess my point is sometimes it is worth it to spend on the tool in the long run. That said, spending more than $1K on a tool with no clear repute - yeah, that's crazy. Hopefully someone can clarify if this forge is what it claims to be. |
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Post by esuyengh on Oct 28, 2016 14:04:13 GMT
If I spend a few hundred or even over 1000 $, I want historical acuracy, a very durable and sharpened blade, which can hold an edge when cutting. Acid treated blades might look nice, but that doesn't say anything of their quality. I agree. Any insight into their quality? I actually am spending well over $1K on a commissioned jian being overseen by Sifu Rodell, so I know it will be accurate, very sharp, and handle well. I'll post pics of that when I finally get it. I'm inquiring about this forge because I often get the itch to buy side swords lol. |
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Post by pellius on Oct 28, 2016 18:28:27 GMT
Speaking of Mr. Rodell, Seven Stars has 3 new "Scott Rodell battle tested/approved" jian that look absolutely fabulous, are claimed to be genuine 3 plate san mei construction, and are specifically crafted to be used in his school of sword fighting tai chi. They are around $650. He was kind enough to share some details with me regarding construction, specifications and the like. Very impressive. If I ever study jian, I'll probably spring for one of those. www.sevenstarstrading.com/site/huanuo/Edit - The Seven Stars site now advertises these as pattern welded / Damascus rather than 3 plate san mei. I don't know if they are different construction than the ones Mr. Rodell spoke of about a year ago. The new pics don't look like san mei, and the link Mr. Rodell provided now leads to a "discontinued" item. Bummer. I suppose it's like all things sword related - if you see something you really like, make the stretch to get it while you can. (And don't sell it later!) sevenstarstrading.com/site/longquanjian/ |
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Post by pellius on Oct 28, 2016 18:58:14 GMT
As implied above, I have not formally studied jian. Having said that, with regard to the two jian listed in the original post, they seem to be a little heavy, especially for a first/novice jian. When I was looking into a first jian, the Internet consensus was to keep the weight of a first jian under about a kilo/2.2 pounds.
I have a jian that weighs 1121g (2.47 pounds - more than a quarter pound lighter than the ones listed), and it's a workout to wield.
I would definitely consult with Sifu/Shi Fu before sinking so much money into one of those jian.
As always, I'm just a novice, so...
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Post by esuyengh on Oct 28, 2016 22:23:43 GMT
As implied above, I have not formally studied jian. Having said that, with regard to the two jian listed in the original post, they seem to be a little heavy, especially for a first/novice jian. When I was looking into a first jian, the Internet consensus was to keep the weight of a first jian under about a kilo/2.2 pounds. I have a jian that weighs 1121g (2.47 pounds - more than a quarter pound lighter than the ones listed), and it's a workout to wield. I would definitely consult with Sifu/Shi Fu before sinking so much money into one of those jian. As always, I'm just a novice, so... I definitely agree that jian sold by Seven Stars are worth it, as I had one of the sanmei ones as my main blade for half a decade. My sifu said the one I had was a very good weight (it was like 2.01 lbs). Having been the one that focused a lot on jian at my school in particular, yes, close to 2 lbs. is optimal as the main jian for cutting and forms. But it doesn't hurt to practice with something heavier occasionally. I had one that was 3 lbs., and it definitely was a workout and a bit much. I think practicing with it occasionally though made me faster with the normal jian, but of course too much would have made me too much muscle versus internal. At my school, there are some blunt jian made of some weird metal, maybe pewter or even leaded steel, that are very heavy (guessing maybe 2.5 lbs.) and overly balanced towards the tip. The normal students practice with them after they are done with the wood jian. But during performances, they are told to use a standard jian which is a lot lighter (in some cases spring steel). |
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Post by pellius on Oct 28, 2016 22:53:53 GMT
I reread my post. I hope it didn't sound condescending - I didn't intend it to be.
Having no formal jian system to comply with, I have very much enjoyed cutting and working out with a heavier sword. I just like having a bit more steel out there. It might be terrible for actual fighting/free play. I would have to ask Shi Fu.
I'm actually thinking of going the other direction and picking up an even heavier two edge Viking style straight sword. The Hanwei Cawood (I think it was) looks awesome. I don't know if my school's jian system will work with it, but I'm guessing at least a few moves will. (I'm working on oxtail dao for the foreseeable future.)
Fun to think about. Whatever you choose, I hope you will share your experience.
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Post by esuyengh on Oct 28, 2016 23:20:25 GMT
I reread my post. I hope it didn't sound condescending - I didn't intend it to be. Having no formal jian system to comply with, I have very much enjoyed cutting and working out with a heavier sword. I just like having a bit more steel out there. It might be terrible for actual fighting/free play. I would have to ask Shi Fu. I'm actually thinking of going the other direction and picking up an even heavier two edge Viking style straight sword. The Hanwei Cawood (I think it was) looks awesome. I don't know if my school's jian system will work with it, but I'm guessing at least a few moves will. (I'm working on oxtail dao for the foreseeable future.) Fun to think about. Whatever you choose, I hope you will share your experience. Didn't seem condescending to me. We are just tossing out experiences/opinions. I think on a forum, one has to take everything with a little salt and thick skin because tone is difficult in quick text. If you want heavy, definitely check out the Sword Buyer's Guide Direct X jian. They don't fit my style, but are definitely excellent for thick jian. This is a preview shot I was sent of my commissioned blade. Yes, it's a twist-core. (Any idea how to link it from Google Photos? I just inserted it as an attachment, but it obviously ends up tiny)  |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 28, 2016 23:41:15 GMT
But it doesn't hurt to practice with something heavier occasionally. I had one that was 3 lbs., and it definitely was a workout and a bit much. I think practicing with it occasionally though made me faster with the normal jian, but of course too much would have made me too much muscle versus internal. Too heavy, and you can't do the techniques properly, but within that limit, I think that more weight promotes internal vs external. Using a heavier sword, you'll gain strength/muscle as well, but that will help with the application of "internal", so not a bad thing. Only a little heavy, and you can muscle it around to cope, and avoid learning good habits. Heavier than that, and you have no choice - you must learn good habits. |
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Post by Taiwandeutscher on Oct 29, 2016 2:40:31 GMT
As a long time CMA practicioner, I don't by internal/external any more, since many yrs. I do internal and external stuff, after different beginner approach all ending at the same! -- I use different swords for different porpuses: 1,1kg spring stell waster for casual forms training and partner set, no need to clean at all. Cheap wooden swords for application training, high end swords (Sanmei, Twist core, Damascus)for cutting. I only do green and slightly brown bamboo, with 12 - 17 cm diameter, but only when I have enough time on hand and when I'm really fit (never play with a sharp blade, when tired, I saw ppl hurting themselfs really badly). Because it takes a lot of time to take of the sap, clean, resharpen, oiling and polishing hot, before returning into the scabbard. So when I go cutting, I take a sword and a dao, maybe also a 2-hander, and palying and cleaning takes half a day.
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Post by pellius on Oct 29, 2016 3:34:23 GMT
esuyengh - oh, yeah. Talk about heirloom quality. To my eye, twistcore done well is the pinnacle of sword awesomeness. From what I could see in the pic, your sword is going to be stunning.
Timo - I completely agree with the idea of exaggerating certain components or aspects of a given circumstance for the purpose of neutralizing strength (or other "crutch") so that poor technique is highlighted and good technique is developed.
I always preferred practicing against bigger, stronger and more skilled adversaries. It could be pretty frustrating in the moment, but it cultivated more intense study and preparation, more precise execution of technique, and a deeper trust in the efficacy of the fighting system.
I'm still quite a ways from that point in sword training. (I'm still in the memorizing phase.) Nonetheless, handling and moving a big heavy sharp sword at least develops focus on details like where the tip is about to be, what is going to stop the blade's momentum, where all my body parts are, and whether I am expressing fajin. It also builds strength and stamina. And it's fun. Good stuff.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Oct 29, 2016 6:38:54 GMT
down loaded and expanded the photo of the tip of the sword, poor sharpening of the tip and what can be seen of the edge -
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Post by esuyengh on Oct 29, 2016 22:46:35 GMT
down loaded and expanded the photo of the tip of the sword, poor sharpening of the tip and what can be seen of the edge - Oh do you mean of my blade? That's not complete. That's mid-polish and construction from what I'm told. I'll reserve judgement until I get the final. Or do you mean of the $5k blade? If you mean that, I actually see what you mean. Tip geometry looks sloppy. |
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Oct 30, 2016 2:15:27 GMT
down loaded and expanded the photo of the tip of the sword, poor sharpening of the tip and what can be seen of the edge - Oh do you mean of my blade? That's not complete. That's mid-polish and construction from what I'm told. I'll reserve judgement until I get the final. Or do you mean of the $5k blade? If you mean that, I actually see what you mean. Tip geometry looks sloppy. The 5.5k blade, for that money I would expect clean crisp lines, seems there is a lot of marketing hype for poor workmanship. |
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