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Post by aw1973 on Jul 21, 2016 17:10:58 GMT
I feel all my swords especially my katanas are special and they all should be treated with respect regardless of the price. Now im refering to forged hi carbon functional swords not cheap $30 wall hangars, because regardless if its a nice $100 1060 musashi, a $130 1045 ronin rk or a $900 folded hanwei, someone built it not just stamped out and sweated there butt off in crappy hot conditions and there all works of art some more than others, and i can say i get bummed to see videos of people torture testing them and ruining them. I understand why some people do it to see how good they are and hate when people just destroy them for fun, but either way it makes me sad. Thats why i take care of all my swords because i love em all and respect the effort that went into making it...
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Post by Cosmoline on Jul 21, 2016 17:37:56 GMT
Proper torture testing serves important purposes, though most people don't do it properly. And really there's no need to do it over and over again to the same make and model. For some new maker, it's good to have someone push the sword to the breaking point. If there are shortcomings in the design or production process these can be revealed. And in the absence of any official government certification giving stamps on these things, we're kind of left to our own devices.
And I think there are different concepts of respect for different sword traditions. I'll grab my blades with bare hand, toss them in bags, bash them around, etc. That's what they're for. They don't get put on a shrine, they get used. Though it does irritate me to see nice steel that's been allowed to get all rusty just from improper care.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jul 21, 2016 18:34:24 GMT
I think one should respect a sword the same way they respect a socket wrench, hunting rifle, or cast-iron skillet. If you treat your tools well, they will serve you well. If you treat them poorly, don't be surprised when they fail you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2016 3:11:54 GMT
I feel all my swords especially my katanas are special and they all should be treated with respect regardless of the price. Now im refering to forged hi carbon functional swords not cheap $30 wall hangars, because regardless if its a nice $100 1060 musashi, a $130 1045 ronin rk or a $900 folded hanwei, someone built it not just stamped out and sweated there butt off in crappy hot conditions and there all works of art some more than others, and i can say i get bummed to see videos of people torture testing them and ruining them. I understand why some people do it to see how good they are and hate when people just destroy them for fun, but either way it makes me sad. Thats why i take care of all my swords because i love em all and respect the effort that went into making it... I agree with you. I don't fault makers who occassionally torture test their own stuff to see what it can withstand, that makes sense. But I do think fetishizing it and turning it into a spectacle is distasteful. If you do something incidental, like bend a sword while cutting, or chip the thing actually blocking another cut or trying to cut through a helmet or something extreme like that, it is different. The intention matters. I wouldn't even disrespect even a $30 wall hanger like that. To me it's like saying it's ok to abuse and disrespect a dollar store miniature flag. There's a symbolic value that goes beyond it's actual worth. That people don't or can't appreciate that is a sad thing to me. You might not find a lot of people that feel the same way, but you aren't alone.
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Post by Croccifixio on Jul 22, 2016 8:55:24 GMT
The only torture tests I'd agree with are those involving potential situations that swords faced (hitting the rim of shields, hitting another sword blade or guard or a reasonable mimicry thereof, and repeated hitting of flesh and bone-like substances). Otherwise, it doesn't really speak all that much on performance.
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Post by Darksword Armory on Jul 22, 2016 12:37:07 GMT
I feel all my swords especially my katanas are special and they all should be treated with respect regardless of the price. Now im refering to forged hi carbon functional swords not cheap $30 wall hangars, because regardless if its a nice $100 1060 musashi, a $130 1045 ronin rk or a $900 folded hanwei, someone built it not just stamped out and sweated there butt off in crappy hot conditions and there all works of art some more than others, and i can say i get bummed to see videos of people torture testing them and ruining them. I understand why some people do it to see how good they are and hate when people just destroy them for fun, but either way it makes me sad. Thats why i take care of all my swords because i love em all and respect the effort that went into making it... While I definitely understand and respect where you are coming from, I think the other members here are making some good points. "Torture tests" are used and even encouraged by manufacturers (including ourselves) as a way to determine the durability of their swords. Even though the circumstances are extreme and you would never see them under normal use, you can still get information from these kinds of tests that can inform you of weak points, etc.
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Post by RicWilly on Jul 22, 2016 13:15:07 GMT
I agree with everything except the part about katana being special. Katana are just another sword like any other and reflect the culture that made them like any other.
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Post by Croccifixio on Jul 22, 2016 14:40:39 GMT
I feel all my swords especially my katanas are special and they all should be treated with respect regardless of the price. Now im refering to forged hi carbon functional swords not cheap $30 wall hangars, because regardless if its a nice $100 1060 musashi, a $130 1045 ronin rk or a $900 folded hanwei, someone built it not just stamped out and sweated there butt off in crappy hot conditions and there all works of art some more than others, and i can say i get bummed to see videos of people torture testing them and ruining them. I understand why some people do it to see how good they are and hate when people just destroy them for fun, but either way it makes me sad. Thats why i take care of all my swords because i love em all and respect the effort that went into making it... While I definitely understand and respect where you are coming from, I think the other members here are making some good points. "Torture tests" are used and even encouraged by manufacturers (including ourselves) as a way to determine the durability of their swords. Even though the circumstances are extreme and you would never see them under normal use, you can still get information from these kinds of tests that can inform you of weak points, etc. One thing torture tests are bad at, IMO, is encouraging the type of blade geometries and mass that are historically accurate. Durability is a very small facet of a sword, and some would argue one of the least important. A crowbar is very very tough and durable and would withstand a significant amount of beating and damage... But it would still be a crowbar - clunky, heavy, and the farthest thing from a weapon that length and mass of steel could be. If this is the kind of durability that manufacturers want (not saying that's you necessarily Eyal), then they don't really get what afficionados, collectors, and martial artists want.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 22, 2016 14:44:18 GMT
Yeah, nothing special about a katana. I like them but nothing special other than their beauty. I hate torture tests and grit my teeth every time I see one. On the other hand I understand the need and hate to depend on any equipment that I do not know the limits of. I have recently received a hauberk and want to give a test and can’t bring myself to use a sword on it because I know that I will damage the edge, even if ever so slightly. I am considering a machete for the job that I can give a quick and dirty Accusharp job on, but still... The hauberk I am not worried about.
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Post by nddave on Jul 22, 2016 14:45:15 GMT
I agree with everything except the part about katana being special. Katana are just another sword like any other and reflect the culture that made them like any other.
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Post by aw1973 on Jul 23, 2016 2:17:30 GMT
I
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Post by aw1973 on Jul 23, 2016 2:55:50 GMT
Dont get me wrong i dont think less of other types of swords i love all kinds of blades im a big fan of Medieval swords. I just really love my katanas I think there beautiful and the whole history and Mystique of them,and my sayas have a few dings from using them im constantly out cutting something even my self once in awhile unfortunately, but the damage isn't from treating them poorly. Theres nothing wrong with wear and tear from heavy use thats what happens. But its just that knives and swords to me are special and i hate to see them destroyed regardless if its justified or cheap thrills. All through history there has been a passion for the sword and i understand it as do alot of people regardless if there practitioners or collectors or both but some just dont "get it" and they dont respect them. And yes when there not in use they are on a Pedestal...
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Post by bluetrain on Jul 26, 2016 15:33:47 GMT
Historically, not everyone saw swords the same way, if in fact they even had a sword. A sword was a relatively special weapon at certain times, more so for some than others. Supposedly Japanese officers, before the war, were astonished at the way British officers treated their swords. Judging from what I read, however, British swords may be better treated these days. However, for some reason I can't quite put my finger on, I rather doubt people treat their socket wrenches the same as their hunting rifles.
On the other hand, I think my swords, such as they are, are special just because and only because they're mine.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Jul 27, 2016 2:49:21 GMT
I like my swords to be 'hard combat ready' - be able to survive a prolonged blade on blade battle without being permanently damaged (bent, broken, or chipped really bad), so I appreciate torture tests; they show me how much a particular sword can take. I also like them to be as close to historical artifacts as possible - which is kind of funny, because I believe most historical swords were no where near as tough as some of the modern swords I own.
I do appreciate your sentiments concerning 'respect' (I think that word is a little odd, but it works). Swords have one of the most deep and rich heritages, mythologies, and histories of any item on earth. They are extremely symbolic, and are often beautiful works of art. These are some of the reasons that led me into sword collecting in the first place.
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Post by Darksword Armory on Jul 29, 2016 3:33:52 GMT
One thing torture tests are bad at, IMO, is encouraging the type of blade geometries and mass that are historically accurate. Durability is a very small facet of a sword, and some would argue one of the least important. A crowbar is very very tough and durable and would withstand a significant amount of beating and damage... But it would still be a crowbar - clunky, heavy, and the farthest thing from a weapon that length and mass of steel could be. If this is the kind of durability that manufacturers want (not saying that's you necessarily Eyal), then they don't really get what afficionados, collectors, and martial artists want. This is a very good point. I bet crowbars would do great at destruction tests!....but crow bars aren't swords. I do appreciate your point of view on this and totally agree with what you said about having proper point of balance. In my opinion (so take this for what it is worth), a real sword should be both structurally sound and handle like its historical counterpart. Both are equally important in determining a sword's "worth" (for a lack of better word). Destruction tests, when done properly, are designed to test a swords' structural integrity and hence, help uncover potential flaws in the manufacturing, tempering or assembly that may be unknown when a sword is only used for display purposes or used for simple dry handling. That’s not to say that everyone should be doing destruction tests, just that (in an ideal world) production swords would have a balance of between solid construction (structural integrity) and a proper balance (as well as aesthetics, etc). A sword is more than a mere piece of steel capable of "breaking" or cutting through anything in its path. It is a tool that should be well balanced, properly heat treated and structurally sound (ie, well tempered and properly assembled). Neither one is more important than the other. In a similar example we can take car "performance tests" (such as the ones made by Car and Driver). As a potential customer of of a civic, Mazda or Nissan for example, we don't just want a car that "looks" good and that's comfortable to drive. We need to know how it handles in snow, rain and/or various road conditions. We also need to know how it performs in crash tests (for personal safety in an event of an accident). We don't just buy a particular model because it looks good and starts when we turn on the ignition....a car is much more than that....it needs to be safe (ie, structurally sound in the event of an accident) and perform the way it should; as a safe vehicle (ie, stop in emergency situations in a generally acceptable distance in various weather conditions such as rain, snow, hail and so forth.... A sword is a very different tool, but follows the similar classifications for it to be considered a "sword" as opposed to what's generally referred to in forums as an SLO or "sword like object". If the sword looks great and feels light in your hand, but once used, falls apart due to poor structural integrity / assembly, would it be classified as a (real) sword or an SLO ? As a collector, I want my pieces to be more than just "pretty" sharp object in a glass display. I want them to look good, handle properly, and be well built (ie, structurally sound to perform historical combat training). On a personal level and as a fan and collector, one really great example of a company that is getting this right is Arms & Armor. I’ve had experience with their blades and they are top-notch – weight and handling are as accurate as they come, and they are built solid as well. They can withstand a great deal of punishment in destruction tests, which not a lot of people are aware of, though most people know how well they handle and how historically accurate they are in general.
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pellius
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Post by pellius on Jul 30, 2016 0:14:05 GMT
I respect the position that destructive or destruction tests are inappropriate or disrespectful. I don't happen to share that position, though.
Many products are destructive/destruction tested, including (even very expensive) cars. For me, knowing how a product performs all the way to, and beyond, its limits is very informative, provided the test was done in a sufficiently rigorous scientific way.
Even ancient artifacts are sometimes subjected to destruction for DNA, metallurgical, temporal, or structural analysis.
As for swords, I like to know whether advertised sanmei is truly sanmei, whether steel is the grade advertised, whether hardness is as claimed, and whether heat treating was effective.
I know one "good" result won't guarantee my sword will be reliable. However, one or more "bad" results, or a result that proves a seller/manufacturer/forge is a liar, turns my business away forever. So I offer my respectful thanks to those willing to take the financial hit of destructive testing so that I can buy with more confidence.
That's just me though.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 30, 2016 1:17:54 GMT
I am reminded of what the Great Buddha had to say on the subject: "Treat you garden with love, respect, and set an example worthy of emulation; thus increasing the strength and harmony of the universe. But always remember that at night you will go to sleep and sumthin gonna come in and semprini on your stuff."
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Post by Maynar on Aug 1, 2016 12:51:54 GMT
lol Dave
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