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Post by darth on May 31, 2016 2:39:57 GMT
Figured it could go here, the beginner’s forum or the training forum. Since you cut at it among other things, I put it here.
Conflicting info about pell training.
Some say it was only with wooden waisters, other say it was beater swords, others say you could use a decent sword, but the wood should be soft and you'll be touching your blade up or leaving it kind of dull awhile.
I have used machetes and knives on trees before, but not with regularity. I've used tire dummy's with sticks and pipes but never full swords except a few times cutting things with crap wall hangers and cheap katanas with friend in my youth.
I am using a $100 windless CSA Cav officer's saber, after seeing it I saw how much cheaper you can get them sometimes through Amazon or used, so I'll have many more probably and unless I pay for some historical treasure, I look at weapons as things to be trained with and pell training is som,ething I'd like to do, along with cutting.
So anyone who does it or knows anyone who does it or if you think it's a dumb thing to do and why.
Thank you.
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Post by MOK on May 31, 2016 8:20:47 GMT
You're not supposed to hit the pell with any force, so the question of whether to use wasters, beaters or nice swords is somewhat beside the point. It's NOT cutting or hitting practice. The purpose of pell work is to develop your sense of distance, control and flow, by aiming series of attacks at it, executing them with full speed but stopping them short as close to the pell as you can, even touching it but NOT bashing into it. You're not trying to chop it down, it's just something to focus on.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on May 31, 2016 15:15:25 GMT
I disagree... IMO it's absolutely a good idea to actually hit the pell. Maybe not always but in general, yes. Where do you get the idea that one should always stop the blade short? Genuinely curious...
EDIT: to go into a bit more depth here... there are several possible training exercises you can do on a pell. Training control by stopping short may well be one. But throwing a variety of cuts and thrusts with the intend on hitting to train fluidity and continuous attacking even after a (first) hit is made is also a very valuable thing to train (and mainly what I do). Strength training using heavier weapons and going full-force (but please without sacrificing form too much) is another option.
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Post by RicWilly on May 31, 2016 22:01:39 GMT
I am loathe to disagree with Lukas as he is far more informed and trained than I.
From the manual "The Swordsman's Companion by Guy Windsor", "the idea is to hit the pell as hard and fast as you can without actually touching it (or just tapping it on a marked spot, for accuaracy). Under no circumstances should you hit a solid object with a sword: the shock can damage your joints, and break the sword."
Earlier he mentions, "For striking targets, I have students hold an old care tyre.". Later he mentions using mats, hanging rope, water filled plastic bottles and drink cans.
I use a wooden pell and hang a tire on it for contact. I also like to cut bottles and such for fun mostly.
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Post by darth on Jun 1, 2016 3:58:18 GMT
. I disagree... IMO it's absolutely a good idea to actually hit the pell. Maybe not always but in general, yes. Where do you get the idea that one should always stop the blade short? Genuinely curious... EDIT: to go into a bit more depth here... there are several possible training exercises you can do on a pell. Training control by stopping short may well be one. But throwing a variety of cuts and thrusts with the intend on hitting to train fluidity and continuous attacking even after a (first) hit is made is also a very valuable thing to train (and mainly what I do). Strength training using heavier weapons and going full-force (but please without sacrificing form too much) is another option. Yes, my intent is not to use the pell for power with the thing, like a heavy bag for swords. Sticks on tires will do that. I am not looking to use it like a tree to chop down, did not do that with machettes on trees for training either. I want it for what you are talking about, so I can move on a contact target continuously. I plan on doing cutting, bottles, mats and melons, but unless you set up a lot of targets, you can only go so continuously. Got any thoughts on the kind of wood/logs? Not like I'm buying custom wood, plenty of dead trees in the woods. Thanks.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 1, 2016 4:27:44 GMT
Conflicting info about pell training. Some say it was only with wooden waisters, other say it was beater swords, others say you could use a decent sword, but the wood should be soft and you'll be touching your blade up or leaving it kind of dull awhile. There's conflicting information because there's more than one way to train with a pell, and more than one kind of sword/training tool to use with it. Got any thoughts on the kind of wood/logs? Not like I'm buying custom wood, plenty of dead trees in the woods. I like hanging pells, with a waster (or just a stick, or a re-enactment blunt). Should work OK with something like a blunt Windlass. Could pad it a bit if you want. Hanging it means it will move, giving you a moving target, and make damage to your sword less likely. Of course, you need something to hang it from, so it might not be convenient or even possible. If it breaks, get a new piece of wood. It's easier to replace the wood in a hanging pell than a post pell. For light contact, a heavy hanging rope might be good.
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Aikidoka
Member
Monstrous monk in training...
Posts: 1,452
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Post by Aikidoka on Jun 1, 2016 6:19:23 GMT
I bought a heavy bag stand (on sale at Walmart) and hung a tire on it (free from the local Walmart auto repair shop), with rope and bungee cords. It offers good resistance, but won't damage your joints or your sword.
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Post by RicWilly on Jun 1, 2016 7:20:07 GMT
I bought a heavy bag stand (on sale at Walmart) and hung a tire on it (free from the local Walmart auto repair shop), with rope and bungee cords. It offers good resistance, but won't damage your joints or your sword. I was thinking of building something like that with timber but that's a much better idea!
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Post by darth on Jun 1, 2016 12:10:29 GMT
Conflicting info about pell training. Some say it was only with wooden waisters, other say it was beater swords, others say you could use a decent sword, but the wood should be soft and you'll be touching your blade up or leaving it kind of dull awhile. There's conflicting information because there's more than one way to train with a pell, and more than one kind of sword/training tool to use with it. Got any thoughts on the kind of wood/logs? Not like I'm buying custom wood, plenty of dead trees in the woods. I like hanging pells, with a waster (or just a stick, or a re-enactment blunt). Should work OK with something like a blunt Windlass. Could pad it a bit if you want. Hanging it means it will move, giving you a moving target, and make damage to your sword less likely. Of course, you need something to hang it from, so it might not be convenient or even possible. If it breaks, get a new piece of wood. It's easier to replace the wood in a hanging pell than a post pell. For light contact, a heavy hanging rope might be good. I've done something similar for training Arnis with sticks. I hung 2 thinck stcks, crossed from a tree and then 55o cord from the bottom to a kettlebell on the gorund so I did not have to chase it too far. So in this case more like a thin tree trunk or the like?
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Post by darth on Jun 1, 2016 12:15:50 GMT
I bought a heavy bag stand (on sale at Walmart) and hung a tire on it (free from the local Walmart auto repair shop), with rope and bungee cords. It offers good resistance, but won't damage your joints or your sword. I like the stand. I use tires like this with rattan sticks for Arnis, so it's good to know it's ok to put my saber across tires. I was going to make a tire pell for sticks. now I know it can be used with blades. www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=784155171686554&set=gm.536065043271328&type=3&theater Thinking of going this far with it for stacks.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jun 1, 2016 13:06:22 GMT
I am loathe to disagree with Lukas as he is far more informed and trained than I. From the manual "The Swordsman's Companion by Guy Windsor", "the idea is to hit the pell as hard and fast as you can without actually touching it (or just tapping it on a marked spot, for accuaracy). Under no circumstances should you hit a solid object with a sword: the shock can damage your joints, and break the sword." Earlier he mentions, "For striking targets, I have students hold an old care tyre.". Later he mentions using mats, hanging rope, water filled plastic bottles and drink cans. I use a wooden pell and hang a tire on it for contact. I also like to cut bottles and such for fun mostly. Oh please, disagree with me if you think differently! We're all here to learn :) Now... I wonder where Guy Windsor got that from. Is that just his personal opinion (totally legit) or based on manuals? In any case, it may be Guy and I disagree on what a solid object or indeed, a pell, is. I consider a hanging tire a pell. That's what I use. I've also tried out timber with manila rope around and several other things. All work fairly well but I've found a tire to be the easiest to have around, especially outside. For an indoor pell I'd prefer a wooden post wrapped in rope. I wouldn't recommend attacking something like a tree full force. That indeed is ruinous for both the sword and your joints. I assume that's what Guy meant with "solid".
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Post by RicWilly on Jun 1, 2016 19:28:16 GMT
I am loathe to disagree with Lukas as he is far more informed and trained than I. From the manual "The Swordsman's Companion by Guy Windsor", "the idea is to hit the pell as hard and fast as you can without actually touching it (or just tapping it on a marked spot, for accuaracy). Under no circumstances should you hit a solid object with a sword: the shock can damage your joints, and break the sword." Earlier he mentions, "For striking targets, I have students hold an old care tyre.". Later he mentions using mats, hanging rope, water filled plastic bottles and drink cans. I use a wooden pell and hang a tire on it for contact. I also like to cut bottles and such for fun mostly. Oh please, disagree with me if you think differently! We're all here to learn :) Now... I wonder where Guy Windsor got that from. Is that just his personal opinion (totally legit) or based on manuals? In any case, it may be Guy and I disagree on what a solid object or indeed, a pell, is. I consider a hanging tire a pell. That's what I use. I've also tried out timber with manila rope around and several other things. All work fairly well but I've found a tire to be the easiest to have around, especially outside. For an indoor pell I'd prefer a wooden post wrapped in rope. I wouldn't recommend attacking something like a tree full force. That indeed is ruinous for both the sword and your joints. I assume that's what Guy meant with "solid". Guy describes a pell as a wooden post stuck in the ground with or without a cross bar. The one I use has four legs of wood, I occasionally hit mine but most of the time I stop short. I drape an old tire over it for contact strikes. I plan on making a hanging tire after this discussion.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 1, 2016 19:51:40 GMT
I like hanging pells, with a waster (or just a stick, or a re-enactment blunt). Should work OK with something like a blunt Windlass. Could pad it a bit if you want. Hanging it means it will move, giving you a moving target, and make damage to your sword less likely. Of course, you need something to hang it from, so it might not be convenient or even possible. If it breaks, get a new piece of wood. It's easier to replace the wood in a hanging pell than a post pell. For light contact, a heavy hanging rope might be good. I've done something similar for training Arnis with sticks. I hung 2 thinck stcks, crossed from a tree and then 55o cord from the bottom to a kettlebell on the gorund so I did not have to chase it too far. So in this case more like a thin tree trunk or the like? A thin tree trunk, or a long thick branch, should be good. It's good to have something at least as long as top-of-head to knee, which gives it a fair amount of weight. Pick a thickness that's strong enough and gives a total weight that's OK. How heavy depends on how hard you want to hit it - if you want to hit it hard with a waster, then heavier (won't move too much, and should last longer).
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Post by newfoundviking on Jun 2, 2016 6:27:36 GMT
I use a heavy punching bag hung from ceiling in my mud room. I wrapped it in multiple layers of car floor mats (which I get for free) and have shredded it. Kinda fun to swing it around then attack from different angles or swing it away from you and step back or forward to hit it on the swing, makes pommel strike super fun as well. Funny that when I started practicing like this not much damage was done to the rubber backed carpet floor mats, now they get shredded quick.
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Post by newfoundviking on Jun 2, 2016 6:32:11 GMT
Here's a close up pic Attachments:
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Post by darth on Jun 3, 2016 5:24:53 GMT
Funny that when I started practicing like this not much damage was done to the rubber backed carpet floor mats, now they get shredded quick. Might mean you are getting better, making better and more consistent edge contact, ect.
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Post by darth on Jun 3, 2016 5:30:27 GMT
Here is a video of a Cossack using a pell. This is what I was wondering everyone’s opinions on, but I sure did get some more great ideas for my backyard training area.
He's not using any real force or speed, just enough to work technique, contact and flow. This is how I do it with short swords, kukris and knives.
I'd never hit a pell with a good sword 1/3 as hard at the maximum as I'd theoretically hit a man in combat. In FMA, we use the trees for the balde traing but easy and then you whack the hell out of tires with sticks. It comes together. I can't see that not playing well with longer swords.
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Post by themagicalmark on Jun 3, 2016 21:28:43 GMT
Something i've seen which i think is a great idea is to wrap your pell in fairly thick rope as a sort of padding for your sword.
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Post by Deepbluedave on Jun 4, 2016 6:57:01 GMT
Made this one a few years ago, it is solid enough that if you want to, you can go for it, but has enough give so no damage to swords or joints I put it on wheel for ease of movement, It is also great for knees and elbows and a bit of shadow boxing.
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Post by darth on Jun 6, 2016 4:55:25 GMT
Awesome tire dummy, very much like what I have seen FMA guys have. The first one I ever messed with was on wheels like that and they had grips on the back and they move it around , make you chase and evade it. Good stuff.
Went out to the country Saturday and came back with 4, pretty soft wood fence post. 1 is for a simple wood pell, another is for a high cutting post for head shots on melons and such, doubles as anything really, maybe put a tire or two at the base for kicks and the third is for a tire dummy.
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