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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2016 14:16:08 GMT
That Last part was totally not funny(not saying the rest of it was)
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 15, 2016 17:04:19 GMT
I can’t say that I agree with unscrewing then throwing the pommel. In combat that sounds absurd. But to get to a true more recent similar incident, I purchased a CS pre 2007 cruciform sword cane way back when, I can’t remember the official name that CS had given it, but it preceded their present Aluminum Head Sword Cane that follows the same general lines. It was the first CS sword that I purchased and didn’t know much about the company. Along with the cane CS sent sales literature from which I ordered a CD concerning their products. This was in the days before they had taken to the Internet/YouTube and that is how they demonstrated their products. When the CD came there was a pitch concerning that cane. I welcomed the demo as it showed someone swinging the cane by the tip end and smashing concrete blocks with the head. That answered my concern about the strength of the joint and relieved some anxiety. Also in the video they unscrewed the pommel and placed it in a sock, much like the improvised wet sand in a sock weapon, and likewise was smashing blocks. I couldn’t help but to think how dumb that was. The threads were fine and it took some time for the pommel to clear the tang, then I had to place it in a sock which gave less range than the cane. ???
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2016 17:12:01 GMT
My point exactly! Not to mention that the opponent gets the added Fuel-To-Fire by laughing his/her head off, while our vacant lifeless eyes stare, ever lost it's light into the abysmal darkness.....
Or you could take advantage as they laugh!
Sorry to the thread owner, but this is too good an act to pass by quietly! :-)
(BTW, I don't think of the darkness as abysmal, it just seemed to fit.....)
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Post by freq on May 17, 2016 1:46:02 GMT
there is a clear reference to screw on pommels in Tallhoffers 1459 fight book right about 33 mins in to this video one of the swords clearly has a threaded pommel, any reason why you couldnt have a sub pommel to hold the sword together if you removed the other to throw? dont forget people were just as creative back then as they are now some people would do anything within the "rules" to win
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Post by freq on May 17, 2016 1:47:04 GMT
Do you have to reattach each one before you unscrew and throw it? maybe you could keep them in a sack? this was addressed as well in the above video about 6 mins in
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Post by Cosmoline on May 18, 2016 16:26:47 GMT
The only real answer here is to have someone in harness volunteer to get hit with a thrown pommel.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2016 16:32:50 GMT
I will try to experiment this technique. Results of the experiment to be posted in 2-3 days.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2016 17:38:28 GMT
No the answer is to unscrew a pommel and throw it at a guy ready to hit you with a sword and not get destroyed for it. i seriously believe you'll be better off just throwing the sword. You have to remove pommel, chamber and throw before he stabs strikes or slices. Good luck
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Post by Cosmoline on May 18, 2016 17:43:06 GMT
Remember this is harnessfetchen, so the thrower has considerably more protection than he otherwise would. And the thrower is shown with the spear in a defensive position ready to deflect thrusts. Standard cuts are futile against harness, so he doesn't have to worry about that. Plus I think we have to assume this is at least at long measure, or perhaps even out of measure at least for the unscrewing part. Though as with most period text it isn't always made clear. The underlying question is what physical effect getting hit with a pommel in armor in the chest, neck or head will actually have on you. If it does indeed discombobulate or even injure, then maybe we're underestimating the utility of the move. If it just bounces or deflects off with no real effect, then it's probably just a joke or some odd theory. I've seen deeds of arms and other properly done harness fighting, but the general overriding rule is NO THROWING, because you can hit bystanders or judges. So AFAIK this basic question has never been addressed in a methodical way.
To be on the safe side, it's probably wise to start with small rocks and work up to a dense steel pommel.
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Post by MOK on May 18, 2016 19:22:37 GMT
Well, if you manage to hit them square-on on the helmet with a weighty pommel, it might well distract them momentarily. But that's really the most you can expect. A thrown pommel has considerably less energy behind it than an edge blow with the whole sword, and those already have little effect on plate armour.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2016 21:53:46 GMT
I can't see this thing as anything other than a bad medieval Tueller drill. Even if the pommel was a simple snap-off it would still be highly questionable.
In my JSA studies we have techniques were we throw the fan at an opponent's face, and take advantage of the moment when their vision is obscured to close in and make the kill. I don't doubt that throwing something at someone can be great for a momentary distraction. It doesn't matter if the object creases their helmet or breaks their face, if we're talking about a sudden momentary distraction I can totally see that working. There is no sudden momentary distraction when you stop, prop your spear up against your shoulder, unscrew the pommel, and then throw. Since you can't count on surprising someone when they see you shoulder arms and start working the pommel free, then it had better do some damage. First, you gotta get it free.
The part I'm having trouble with is where someone manages to fumble around with the weapon long enough to unscrew a pommel and lob it at the other guy successfully without getting skewered or what have you. I don't care how many threads it has, you're juggling a spear and your sword and trying to remove the pommel. Maybe if it was a snap off it might work, but even that is a stretch.
After all that, then we can talk about whether it would hurt or not - it doesn't matter if you've got the meanest fast ball in the world, first you gotta survive long enough to get the thing ready to throw. It's ... unlikely as presented.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 19, 2016 16:29:40 GMT
You guys should look at the rest of the ms. This fits in perfectly with the other defensive positions shown, so I don't think it's a joke. The vertical spear protects against thrusts as he removes the pommel. He's in a defensive position as presented, with the spear ready to block thrusts. If we also assume he's out of measure, and the pommel has a few medieval style threads to allow it to be removed in a few twists, then this becomes more realistic.
I don't think it's fair to just assume, without any testing, that this is impractical or some kind of joke. I think most people are thinking in terms of ordinary sword fighting, but this isn't. It has a whole different set of rules and dangers.
Do we actually know that though? Has anyone measured it or done a test? So often we see historians and scholars dismissing artifacts or records that they don't initially understand. Hell, I.33 was once thought to be demonstrating techniques for crippled people! And how many stone age and ancient artifacts have been erroneously dismissed as having "ritual purpose" because nobody bothered to explore their potential uses? Living history, which at base is what HEMA is all about, should be about respecting the past enough to presume that the tools and techniques shown were being shown for a reason.
So who's up for getting beaned on the noggen?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2016 18:44:35 GMT
I can travel with relative freedom in the northeast US from Portland ME through Conneticut and would be happy to help demonstrate what should be blatantly apparent.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 21, 2016 0:41:00 GMT
Well it needs to be in harness. Obviously none of this is going to work in blossfetchen. And so far nobody has stepped forward to describe experiences or testing of hitting a helmet with a thrown pommel. You have mentioned a fan, which is demonstrably not a pommel. And beyond this I don't know if anyone has really tried out the rest of the techniques in this source.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2016 1:27:55 GMT
Wouldn't a pommel be even more effective against a face than a helmet?
And I agree. One of the big differences between a fan and a pommel is that a fan is an easily accessed small object that can be quickly thrown to surprise / distract an opponent. Throwing the rondel he has attached to his belt, that would make sense. It doesn't have to penetrate or damage the opponent, just a momentary "oh hey something is coming at my face, what the -" before he closes in and goes to work.
I am still willing to get in the car and drive up to 3 hours if someone really believes in this technique and thinks they can do something with it. I'm pretty confident that it is non-viable, but if there's someone out there that feels otherwise and can demonstrate it I'd be willing to spend some time with them.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2016 7:04:11 GMT
Ok, I am back. 19th, 20th and 21st, I experimented on these dates, and I have results. If somebody is interested, I can present the whole experiment here..though I am really sorry since there are no pics, my digital got fried since my a** of a brother accidently dropped in the swimming pool, where we were filming.......
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Post by Cosmoline on May 23, 2016 22:01:20 GMT
Do tell! I take it everyone survived apart from the camera.
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Scott
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Post by Scott on May 23, 2016 23:46:36 GMT
Yes, please tell us the results.
Taking another look at the picture the threads on the tang appear to be fairly wide so perhaps the pommel wouldn't take as long to remove as we seem to assume. It's a bit of a gimmick, but it wouldn't be the only gimmicky weapon that was around.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 0:09:44 GMT
Sorry, I took so long. One part repeated, and one happy younger brother, apart from some dizziness that I faced. Will post soon though, need to get it in order.
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Post by themagicalmark on May 24, 2016 2:29:26 GMT
Sorry, I took so long. One part repeated, and one happy younger brother, apart from some dizziness that I faced. Will post soon though, need to get it in order. Thats awesome, i cant wait to see what you found. ill have to show my results to my HEMA instructor.
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