Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 10, 2016 19:02:37 GMT
This P21 Cavalry sabre arrived today. The seller said it was made for export to Spain. I would like to be able to confirm that, so I am looking for someone who can interprete the marks. I have searched the Oldswords data base, but no luck and I do not have any books on British sabres. The sabre was made after the 1 ring regulation hit, so after about 1880 by A.S. Reeves - Birmingham. GB under crown. Export mark? (See edit). Cheers. Edit: I just found that the GB under Crown mark means ,, accepted for the regular (British) Army''.
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Post by victoriansword on Feb 10, 2016 22:06:46 GMT
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 10, 2016 23:15:59 GMT
Thank you very much! I am sure it was made for the Portuguese Cavalry after reading the SFI thread. The Crown seems to be Portuguese too, but I am not sure yet.
Cheers.
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Post by Afoo on Feb 11, 2016 3:03:48 GMT
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 11, 2016 6:05:30 GMT
Thanks for the link Afoo. It is without a doubt British made for the Portuguese Army. The crown is different from the British crown. It has much more detail and is exactly like the Portugese Armoury crown. The shagreen grip cover is also different from the British version. The British version has a lyre shaped drag and this one has a drag much like the good old P1796 LC, which is a nice touch and typically Portugese. Further more the sabre does not have the British proof disc, so it was not made for the British Army. And Reeves had the contract to make these sabres for the Portuguese. Dating the sabre might be a hassle, but this afternoon I will try Oldswords again and will also try to find out when Reeves got the contract. The single ring might not be conclusive to say it was made after 1880. Jolly good fun. This sabre is one of the best handling I have so far and I concur with Matt Easton. It is a very good and well made design.
I got it from him for a paltry GBP 199, because the sabre will not sheat properly. One of the liners is bust, but I can repair it. Apart from a few patches of light pitting it is in A+ condition. After I have done the French Horse Artillery Officers M1829 I will polish this one and post it. It is a steal and even may get me so far as to change my mind about collecting British sabres. I am on the lookout for the HC version as it is. Also, this one was cheaper than the Windlass Christus Imperat rapier. That Windlass better be very good, or else!
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 11, 2016 7:39:28 GMT
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Post by victoriansword on Feb 11, 2016 10:37:06 GMT
You will find that the maker's stamp is faded and originally was CHAS. REEVES--Charles Reeves, a quality maker and known for introducing the "patent solid hilt". Reeves operated in Birmingham under his own name from 1856-1884. His factory was called the Toledo Works. www.birminghamgunmuseum.com/index.php?pr=Charles_Reeve
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 11, 2016 10:56:14 GMT
Thanks once again! It looks like you are the to go to source of information on all things British. Mr.Reeves did a very good job of this export sabre. And for a mere troopers sabre to have shagreen on the grip and triple wire is really something else. I will do the Oldswords tour now and see what I can dig up. I want to know when the Portuguese started to use the one ring suspension system.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 11, 2016 14:02:43 GMT
Furk!!
I took the liners out to see what was causing the problem with fully inserting the blade. The liners are 100%. Dirty with grease but very much okay. Took the barrel light in there and there is nothing in the way. Took the combo to the workbench and observed what happens when the blade is inserted. Well, Afoo was right , but for the wrong reasons. The sabre is Portuguese. The scabbard also. But the two do not belong together. Fark!!! The sabre has slightly more curve than the scabbard allows for. The consequence being that it locks itself tight. The scabbard wall presses down on the spine near the false edge, with the result that the sabre is pushed up at the scabbard mouth and locks itself. Liners I can fix, but this not so much. I emailed Matt about this and I hope we can work something out. Furk!!! Suddenly book collecting seems so much more attractive. Peaceful and happy times they were, full of the soft sheen of ancient leather and gild, the soft whisper of handmade paper, before certain entities who shall remain unnamed forever, took advantage of my youthful innocence and steared me towards a vast and dark void filled with oily fumes and great big spiders. Fark!!!!
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Post by Afoo on Feb 11, 2016 15:25:09 GMT
I can always take it off your hands if its causing you too mush despair :P
Hopefully you can work something out. It looks like such a nice piece. With or without functioning scabbard.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 11, 2016 16:37:56 GMT
It IS a nice sabre. It handles like nothing else, almost weightless and very easy to control. Well made also. That's why I hate to do this, but Matt agreed to take it back and do a full refund. Before this episode I did not know these are around and how good they are, so it all has some positive elements too. Also learned that Matt Easton is a standup guy, so if he gets something in that attracts me, I will not hesitate to do business with him again. Also a lot of interesting links popped up, to save and to study. So now I want a good P1821, preferbly an early one but not the pipeback and if possible a Portuguese version. Mr. Reeves knew how to do a good sabre.
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Post by victoriansword on Feb 11, 2016 21:40:52 GMT
I am always happy to help when I can. I am sorry that the sword and scabbard didn't work out for you!
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 11, 2016 22:05:38 GMT
Thank you for your compassionate reply. Your help is much appriciated.
Cheers.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Feb 11, 2016 22:31:56 GMT
Hey, I don't do dark and spiders. Must have been Wesley Snipe.
I have a Portuguese "Ballesteros" 1821. Not as clean as the Revees. They are very nice sabres. Though officsorial in style. The enlisted 1821 Cav is a brute. ( wonderful brute, that is).
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 13, 2016 8:50:54 GMT
Yes, it was Wesley Snipe. How did you know?
I looked in on Ebay, but prices for anything British are very high. Too high. And with the strong dollar and import tax the fun is over. So, this weekend I will try to find some Portuguese dealers. See what they have got. If the troopers version is anything like the Italian 1864 (?) which has the same blade design, it sure would be a beast. The P 1853 I don't like. Ugly grip. Great big can opener garden utensil kinda vibe. No, it has to be the P 1821. Elegant. Take a dose of snuff and beat the snot out of 'em, in that cool aristocratic way. You know?
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Post by Dave Kelly on Feb 13, 2016 12:34:54 GMT
Yes, it was Wesley Snipe. How did you know? I looked in on Ebay, but prices for anything British are very high. Too high. And with the strong dollar and import tax the fun is over. So, this weekend I will try to find some Portuguese dealers. See what they have got. If the troopers version is anything like the Italian 1864 (?) which has the same blade design, it sure would be a beast. The P 1853 I don't like. Ugly grip. Great big can opener garden utensil kinda vibe. No, it has to be the P 1821. Elegant. Take a dose of snuff and beat the snot out of 'em, in that cool aristocratic way. You know? Keep in mind that your dilemma is exacerbated because the P1821 you so approve of is the officer version. Will cost more. Contrasts with the introduction of the P1821 enlisted dragoon with the 35x1.25 in spear point blade. As far as cavalry goes most Brit officer blades after the 1796 are strictly for poofsters. Most straight and 1.12 wide. Useless as cutters. Gorgeous of course. I adore my 1821/96 Cav Officer. Elegant as befits the Empire: just don't go toe to toe with a Fuzzy Wuzzy. The enlisted blades, in spite of interminable complaints by the line, were respectable cav sabres, when maintained and trained to.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 13, 2016 13:23:06 GMT
The beauty of the Portuguese is that it has the Officers grip with shagreen and triple wire, though it is a troopers sabre. It has the troopers winged backstrap. And of course that Reeves produced such a clean product. Plus that it handles so very well. The British P1821 troopers has a wallnut grip, not always covered with leather. The British Officers has the encoutrements one sees on the Portuguese troopers sabre. The blades though, on both the British Officers and the Portuguese Troopers are very much fighting blades of ample dimensions. Though the British P 1853 or was it 1858? has the same blade , the grip is fugly and as Matt Easton states, cillindrical too. Not an improvement. I have not seen the British Dragoon version, but have the Italian and Austrian sabres with this particular type of blade. These are both sabres I like very much, though, of course, they are much heavier than either the Portuguese Troopers or the British Officers. What I also like about the P1821, whether British or Portuguese, is the old school Napoleonic hilt. If I compaire the Portuguese with the French 1822, the Portuguese wins in terms of handling. The French M1822 has more reach, but to me it feels vague. I never got the hang of it. It feels wierd, while the Portuguese slotted right in, so to say. That said I am not going to pay $1250 for any P1821. They must be joking.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Feb 13, 2016 13:24:12 GMT
I wonder what the exchange rate would be to Aussie ?
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 13, 2016 13:29:02 GMT
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Feb 13, 2016 13:44:16 GMT
Our govt. has a habit of cutting stuff up and selling it the Chinese for scrap
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