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Post by chrisperoni on Jan 27, 2016 16:43:41 GMT
Hello all, There's something that has been on my mind for a while now, something that I might have a bit of a hard time expressing accurately so bear with me. I miss how the forum USED to FEEL. I miss the energy and camaraderie. I miss the sense of connection and community. I miss the joking, the back-and-forth, the ... the ... the way we all interacted together... all the ways we interacted together to be more precise. It seems to me in our efforts to become more "friendly" here we have become too p.c., too plain... BORING even. Here's the thing; communicating on the internet thrives on praise. That's just the way it is. I'm not saying this to be stubborn or egotistical or whatever, I'm just calling it it like it is in the virtual world. Every major website, social media venue or what have you, has some version of what is called "internet points". "Likes", "Upvotes", "Karma", "Kudos" - the list goes on and on. It's human nature to want to be rewarded in some way, to want to have people take notice of your ideas, to get a feeling of "aww yeah, I did/said that! Look at all those people looking at me and loving what I did/said!" THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT WORKS ON THE iNtErwEbZFor better or worse, we are doing ourselves a disservice when we ignore this truth. We might not like it, we might even think it's petty or pointless but the fact remains - people CONTRIBUTE MORE when they FEEL they are being acknowledged for it. So why would we want to limit the ways in which people can "earn" this feeling? Let's be honest about it. Some forum members like to reply more than others. That's how it is on any forum, any website. When we take away something such as a "Like" button, we don't encourage people to post responses, we DISCOURAGE them from interacting at all. If I can't easily respond the way I want to on a website, I'm more likely to just go to another site than I am to go about responding the way the 1st site wants me to. Or at the very least I am more likely to just do nothing at all; no response no interaction no acknowledgement. I think that is what is happening. We need to give people EVERY CHANCE to respond to a post. We need to give posters EVERY CHANCE to feel excited about posting. I think we need to do a complete 180 on the forum here and even bring back some of the features lost in all the permutations that have been tried out over the last few years. ENCOURAGING people to participate by forcing how they can do it is, to my mind, completely counter-productive. BRING BACK THE GOOD OL' DAYS AND WAYS! - (obligatory smiley dump a'la slayer of darkness! How's that for a blast from the past reminder lol )
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 17:09:41 GMT
Well said Chris! Bring back karma points and the like button!
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Post by billwolf on Jan 27, 2016 17:44:52 GMT
I agree with this, I'd give it a "like" if I could. As someone who frankly doesn't contribute that much (I'm not exactly a fount of knowledge), I like acknowledging when somebody posts a good, informative or insightful message.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Jan 27, 2016 17:48:31 GMT
Exactly. I missed the like button lol. There were posts I wanted to like after all and had no way to express.
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Post by chrisperoni on Jan 27, 2016 18:45:39 GMT
Thanks for the support guys Personally I want the "like" and "karma" features back. And I'm not saying karma just because I had a bunch back in the day. They serve different albeit related functions. Likes are for just that- saying when you like something. Karma is a step further where we get to say a sort of "not only do I like what you did/made/said/etc, but you deserve an extra acknowledgement for contributing something cool to the forum/sword world."
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Post by plainsman on Jan 27, 2016 18:49:58 GMT
I agree. I joined here right as the like button went away. I like to like things!
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Post by William Swiger on Jan 27, 2016 19:23:04 GMT
I looked when we moved here and the forum options did not have a karma option. That is why we had the "Like" button. Paul removed the "Like" button as some felt posting had dropped off quite a bit due to using the "Like" option vice actually posting.
Maybe if enough people post in this thread, he will take another look at the "Like" button.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Jan 27, 2016 19:27:21 GMT
This has be brought up at least three times now, once by me but it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I thought it was good to let someone know you " liked " what they said even though you didn't have a comment to make.
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Scott
Member
Posts: 1,680
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Post by Scott on Jan 27, 2016 23:10:31 GMT
I thought the like button was good, be nice if it comes back.
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Post by madmandom on Jan 28, 2016 1:05:23 GMT
The karma was ok not that I really used it, I guess it let people know who was here and actually made a contribution, but I don't really miss it. The like button on the other hand, I do miss.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 28, 2016 1:33:22 GMT
I've always felt that things like this only work properly when an opposing function is in place. Once upon a time, we could "exalt" someone who did or said something good that we appreciated or helped us learn, or we could "smite" someone suggesting dangerous behaviors or generally just being rude or otherwise taking away from the positive environment. I'd received a fair share of both in my day, the former I mostly shrugged off as "oh, I guess someone liked that. Neat." However, the latter lead me to reconsider what may have been wrong and attempt to reconcile the situation.
Once upon a time, Facebook had a "dislike" button, and the ridiculous crap so common today was much less so. Now that everything is either "neutral" or "good" there's so much garbage going around, and the only form of opposition is a buried comment. "No, please don't support cutting down trees with your $20 mail ninja sword. That is not safe" falls into the abyss of thousands of likes, shares, and "OMG SEE I TOLD U IT'S A REEL SORD" and the community suffers.
YouTube and Reddit employ both, and the communities generally do well about using them accordingly, and seeing that only the most relevant, accurate posts/videos get seen first. Here in this forum, though, "likes" or whatever have zero impact on anything . They're just a method by which a member can feel good about giving another member a virtual pat on the back. I'd much rather someone offer a word or two, agreement or disagreement alike, but I'm old-fashioned.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jan 28, 2016 4:53:40 GMT
A lot of us miss the karma system. I WAS #2! Only that dastardly chrisperoni held court above me in the opinion of this wise and thoughtful forum, and I was closing that gap(or at least I'd like to think, hahaha). As mentioned by William above, it wasn't removed and isn't being withheld on this new forum, it simply is not an option given to us. I am amenable to a like/dislike or a vote up/down system, but I am not sure what all is possible. Obviously we can do likes. One issue is that the decision made to remove it wasn't made in a box, nor arbitrarily. Paul received word about it impacting discussion, and it was true. When it was on, post count went down. If post count goes down enough, there is no reason for Paul to continue supporting the forum and it will close.
Warning: lengthy, boring personal opinions to follow.
A couple of personal comments on how the forum has evolved. No, it doesn't seem as lively as before. A lot of the members we had before are no longer in attendance or do not post as often. A lot of posts in the recent past have been made by disgruntled members or new members who want to A. start an argument about something, B. want to prove that a vendor or manufacturer of ill reputation is actually the best thing ever, or C. is a member who made a purchase and wants patted on the back, not be told that they may have or definitely did buy a dud. Things like that. We've also had a surge in "trolls". This forum is known as "The Friendliest" sword forum. It's true that because of the flood of bad apples we've had to step up and refine the rules of posting. This was done as a result of complaints against the type of behavior mentioned above. Some members seriously chafe under these(though most the rules are basically an elaboration of the "Golden Rules" of SBG: try to be helpful, don't be an a**hole, don't rip people off) and simply have to have an outburst that lands them either warned or banned. They take this personally and leave, generally to join another site and rail against the viscous oppressors at SBG.
I would personally love to be able to go back to the more laid-back style we had a couple of years ago, and hopefully it happens. I think that one issue has to do with the proliferation of new members and the loss of some of the older guys and gals. People don't know each other as well, and the banter we used to see isn't there because of that. Also, a lot of the veteran members are kind of tired of answering the same questions and taking part in the same discussions, either eschewing them completely or answering in a short manner. This is unfortunate, as new members are bereft of knowledge(and some reject it outright if it does not jive with the knowledge they've accrued with a half-hour of internet searching) and it makes it harder for them to integrate.
As some of you may know, another great forum, the United Backyard Cutters, has been slated to close recently. This was due to a couple of things. One, Randy Higgins, the owner, has had some health issues. Another probably more dire one is that posting was down to almost nothing. Traffic was nearly stopped. There were a few hardcore members that regularly posted, but not many. Randy kept it going for as long as he could, but at some point it became too much for too little. Because of this, I cannot fault Paul for doing whatever he feels necessary to encourage discussions and participation.
Lastly(I promise) is the rise in popularity of Facebook as a meeting place. This isn't a bad thing, but it does pull traffic away from the forum, and this can have an impact here, and not in a good way. If we were forced to close, and relied solely on Facebook(as Randy has been forced to do) we would lose a massive amount of content. Imagine trying to post a nice, detailed review with lots of great pictures in a Facebook post...
I've railed on enough, and gone off on enough tangents. Those are my own views on the subject(and a few others, hahaha).
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Mikeeman
Member
Small Business Operator
Posts: 2,904
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Post by Mikeeman on Jan 28, 2016 6:48:50 GMT
This is exactly the reason I've done things like bring back the Game of SWORD and start the Forged in SBG competition. Unfortunately, neither of those have made it very far. Adrian is right. We've lost a LOT of good members and the new guys only stick around long enough to ignore our recommendations and buy a bad sword.
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Post by William Swiger on Jan 28, 2016 7:03:54 GMT
Agree 100% with Adrian. Another thing is the sword hobby is a very small community. Many get into the hobby for whatever reasons to include being influenced by games, social media, movies, history, martial arts and other reasons. Most don't stay in the hobby very long and move on to other interests. I can attest to this from the hundreds of inactive accounts I have deleted. Even some of those who stay around for the long haul will eventually move on or just sporadically pop in every blue moon. I personally don't think the forum is the reason we have such a high turnover rate. I think it is more that people move on for other reasons.
When I joined, the forum was pretty much evaluating the value of the entry level offerings available. It still has that focus but now also gets into the middle and upper end production market, antique swords and customs. I think this is a natural progression for the members who stay and get more involved in the hobby. Even if finances are tight, there are higher priced swords that sell much cheaper on the secondary market and a savvy buyer can score an antique. It is also great seeing some of our own branching out into making blades or related products. We have more than a few out there. I also get very excited seeing all the good custom work our folks do to turn a plain sword into something special from grips, scabbards and other stuff. Seeing members take common tools and converting them into weapons is also very cool.
Sorry for the rant - carry on.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Jan 28, 2016 8:39:24 GMT
The forge in lost interest because it is taking so long to do. I mean 8 months and only one round judged, only 4 designs made.
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Post by Croccifixio on Jan 28, 2016 11:05:13 GMT
Wasn't here in the good old days but I plan to stay. I do have some thoughts on the matter, from my experience in gaming forums.
Anytime something new comes up, a wave of newcomers will enter and disturb the tranquility of forums. Many "vets" don't take this well because it means an influx of relatively unknowledgable people that they'll have to "teach" or at least live with. Times like these, the forum survives only if those newbies are encouraged to stay and learn. With a niche hobby like this, you can only really get that from great content (which sbg has in spades) AND vets who are willing to cut newbies some slack and rinse and repeat stuff. These vets carry forums through these waves. In turn, the newbies eventually learn and become regulars themselves.
One thing I noticed is a slow down on reviews. Especially on the lower end items that are more of interest to new folks who don't want to break the bank for a "useless" sword. However, new and old swords continue to be sold so I feel that people have to continue to buy and test them. Since many have "graduated" into ATrim and Albion and customs, their reviews don't really generate much interest from new people.
Long story short: the forum needs the vets to continue their activity and helpfulness to newbies. The forum also needs more content geared towards informing these newbies about potential purchases. Perhaps bring back the reviewer system? Or maybe, simply, we all need to post more reviews even if we don't feel to keen on doing so? Also, the initiatives such as the vendor lists, sword construction database, etc need more activiy. They are seriously very useful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 11:59:55 GMT
I agree with you croccifixio. We need more entry level reviews. I for one, bought several swords with the intent of reviewing them, then life happened, and I never managed to sit down and write a review, and those blades were eventually sold. I think reviews help more than anything, as many people just Google the title of the sword plus the word review. It helps to have SBG show up higher on the list to increase interest and make sure that more people see it. However, sword collecting isn't for everyone and many people just move on. I also think those smiths and blademakers on the forum should be promoted and reviewed to put their products out there, so that people know there are people who can make a unique, custom sword for them at a lower price, that way people don't continue to give the unreliable Chinese forges their business, only to be disappointed and turned away from sword collecting due to one bad experience. Most new posters in my experience come in asking about an eBay forge, and its the same discussion, the same disappointment, then the poster disappears for good. Unfortunately, few people stick around anymore
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Post by freq on Jan 28, 2016 12:14:48 GMT
i say bring back the likes and add dislikes, but be aware that people will use them to comment on your work/projects, potentially without any form of clarification i miss the karma system it was a good feeling to get that little bump that meant you had impressed someone enough they felt the need to reward you for it one other thing i miss is the "titles" for lack of a better term, they helped you to know at a glance if some one had been a prolific poster or just a drop in. i think people post more and interact more when they feel they are getting something from it even if its just a silly title under their avatar, one m.a. forum i was on had you go through belt colors as you went up in post count, it seemed like you achieved something and encouraged you to post and hang around ,cant see why we cant do this on here, could add in peoples achievements eg; forged in sbg champion, king of customization , sbg s.w.o.r.d champion etc this would allow people to see those members who are contributing in ways other than just posting, and would give people things to work towards or offer challenges to people to win their titles ah la traditional duels, just my two c worth hope it helps
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ChrisA
Member
Senior Forumite
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Post by ChrisA on Jan 28, 2016 16:45:17 GMT
If SBG is reduced to that Facebook page I will be done with SBG.
I still come here often, but post less. The like button and karma have nothing to do with that, though I do like both. There are less interesting topics being thrown about. Less people are looking for ideas and more for justifications or soapboxes.
What this place really needs is more Ric Willy.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Jan 28, 2016 17:18:13 GMT
Oooooh Noooo, don't Ric Willy us, that's sure to scare people away. I'm a member of a Viking Age forum which was going great. I got busy doing other thing and stopped going to it but when I came back it was all but dead. I posted a ton of posts hoping to get it rolling again with no luck. I do miss it, had some good information there. Back to the subject, I think a LIKE button can help keep someone active when they just don't have something to say until they're ready to say something.
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