Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jan 21, 2016 18:44:10 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 18:53:32 GMT
The point is that the B&G swords have been coming out of EC for a couple of years now and there is little reason to carry on about who, what, when and why.
As I initially posted to this thread, it is a whole lot easier to just be amused and go about my own interests.
IIRC Pino posted up the first reviews of these B&G repros quite some time ago.
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jan 21, 2016 20:25:05 GMT
Dave and I were the first to buy the first BG's from EC. Dave from the first batch and me from the second because they sold like cakes. Dave did the first review of the first sabre on 26 Nov 2013. Pino 16 July 2015. Some of us find it highly amusing to try to sort out the BG snake pit. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as one knows it is just a side show. Although getting lied to by EC is not very amusing at all. It tends to piss folk off and put strains on an otherwise good business relationship. The main point of the excersise is to get the High Command so far that there is something done about the blades, the taper. We need to find a way in, with our complaints. You don't give a fig. That's fine.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 21:49:10 GMT
Dave and I were the first to buy the first BG's from EC. Dave from the first batch and me from the second because they sold like cakes. Dave did the first review of the first sabre on 26 Nov 2013. Pino 16 July 2015. Some of us find it highly amusing to try to sort out the BG snake pit. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as one knows it is just a side show. Although getting lied to by EC is not very amusing at all. It tends to piss folk off and put strains on an otherwise good business relationship. The main point of the excersise is to get the High Command so far that there is something done about the blades, the taper. We need to find a way in, with our complaints. You don't give a fig. That's fine. Interesting take on the history of things. It is this review from 2011 I was thinking of. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/25644/empire-costume-vendemiaire-xiiWhatever though, it is more important that collectors buy wisely and if the newly made swords meet their needs, more power to them. As pretty as they seem, I can't see spending a cent on them.
|
|
|
Post by Afoo on Jan 21, 2016 22:23:09 GMT
From what I see in the reviews, it appears that the EC stuff at least is getting better in terms of taper no? So maybe that is some progress for us?
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 21, 2016 22:32:54 GMT
Okay team, happy hour; time for drinkees.
The Vendemiaires have been around for some time as with the 1791 Hussar Sabre. I bought one after Pinot posted. It is a staff sword with different langets. It is also not Blued. ( The BGs hit the street in late 2014.)
My point in posting was an observation of the business intrigues in marketing 19th Century repls.
There are some swords I will never be able to afford. In those cases I will embrace a replica.
Cheers
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 23:54:16 GMT
Dave and I were the first to buy the first BG's from EC. Dave from the first batch and me from the second because they sold like cakes. Dave did the first review of the first sabre on 26 Nov 2013. Pino 16 July 2015. Some of us find it highly amusing to try to sort out the BG snake pit. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as one knows it is just a side show. Although getting lied to by EC is not very amusing at all. It tends to piss folk off and put strains on an otherwise good business relationship. The main point of the excersise is to get the High Command so far that there is something done about the blades, the taper. We need to find a way in, with our complaints. You don't give a fig. That's fine. Interesting take on the history of things. It is this review from 2011 I was thinking of. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/25644/empire-costume-vendemiaire-xiiWhatever though, it is more important that collectors buy wisely and if the newly made swords meet their needs, more power to them. As pretty as they seem, I can't see spending a cent on them. Yes Uhlan is right, the Blue gilt blade was not offered by Empire Costume at the time in 2011 and was done by me, hence the confusion. I think the BG blades started to appear with the Chasseurs a cheval officer sword which was reviewed by Dave. I was taking a look at the new swords at KOA and saw these: Grenadier Guard officer sword (supposedly an exclusive to Empire Costume...) The scout officer sword not seen at Emp Costume (well spotted Uhlan) Also saw the sudden flood of Weaponedge vs Universal swords at KOA, as if they decided to throw up all their ''hidden gems'' in an all out offensive.
|
|
|
Post by Afoo on Jan 22, 2016 1:01:53 GMT
Bfoo2 does have a point about competition though - now that the gloves appear to be coming off between the various players involved, maybe we will see some more improvements as they try to steal some more market share.
Sure, it may have to come in small steps - blue and gilt first, then maybe some changes to the guard, and a minor tapering of the blades, but at least its in the right direction. Again, hopefully direct competition will serve to accelerate this process a bit
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jan 22, 2016 7:31:58 GMT
So maybe the time is right to alert them of their shortcomings. The taper bit. If the fight for marketshare is excellerating for whatever reason, economic stress translating in a tightening market and fewer sales, with higher production cost and slinking revenue, the first forge that has our info is way in front of the others. But how do we get the message across? For me that is the main point. And how do we formulate the message? To tell any person that he, for decades, has done it all wrong, well, that will not work. Surely not in the Indian environment. The message needs to be packaged in a way that even an Indian person can digest it without exploding in an honour fit and see the reason and profit to be made at the end of the line.
|
|
|
Post by aronk on Jan 22, 2016 17:35:54 GMT
There are a number of swords I would gladly purchase replicas of if they were of good quality and matched antiques in performance. Unfortunately, despite the fact that these swords used to be produced industrially, using much the same equipment as the Indian forges, US, WEI, etc seem to be determined to produce sh@t...
|
|
|
Post by Afoo on Jan 23, 2016 5:34:20 GMT
There are a number of swords I would gladly purchase replicas of if they were of good quality and matched antiques in performance. Unfortunately, despite the fact that these swords used to be produced industrially, using much the same equipment as the Indian forges, US, WEI, etc seem to be determined to produce sh@t... As unhappy as some of us may be, we should also remember that they are making these swords and selling them for $200 a piece. Considering the effort and work and materials that goes into making one, thats quite a feat. Yes, we may bemoan the taper, but it is still a piece of tempered and forged carbon steel. The grips may have epoxy, but thats wood someone had to take time to carve and smooth. Leather and wire wrap, finishing, brasswork, wood scabbard with more leather and brass etc. And all this for something which is being sold to a very niche market, and with VERY slow turn around (ie: very low cash flow to sustain day to day operations). So yes, while they used to make swords industrially in the olden days, a) there was much more demand for them, so you could count on a reliable income stream under which you could actually invest in better production techniques etc and b) they were probably charging a whole lot more than they are now (corrected for inflation, consumer buying power etc), so that comparison may be a bit unfair. Not saying there aren't things wrong with the sword industry - am not a fan of EC's sneaking about etc, and the QC coming out of Universal swords has been problematic in my experience, The CS stuff is somewhat fanciful in its marketing and always manages to disappoint in some small but silly lapses in judgement, but on balance they have got some things right. If we do want a sword of the same quality as in the olden days, we do have higher end makers which can provide that. I cannot remember off the top of my head, but I remember one of you sabre gurus posted a link to them a while back. Denalli armouries has taken a stab at making a custom sabre, and we have nice high end sources for rapiers and earlier Renaissance stuff. Ultimately, when I buy a $200 replica sword, I do so knowing that its on the cheap end of the market, and adjust my expectations accordingly. Yeah, its got issues with taper, but its still a well finished, relatively refined, fully functioning sword for less than the cost of my boss' office chair. It may not be a win, but its not a complete loss either. Anyways...I think the main point in Dave's post was about the misleading/confusing statements and marketing material from the various forges - with EC claiming their swords come from someplace, and new evidence suggesting otherwise. Same could be said for CS and their obviously Indian-sourced products. That is an entirely different issue and one which brings endless frustration. I don't think it was meant to be a diss against the physical quality of modern repro swords themselves (though my apologies if I am misinterpreting your words). Frankly, we all know the shortcomings of modern repros - we all have our views on them, however harsh or otherwise, and thats kinda old hat to be honest.
|
|
|
Post by Jayhawk on Jan 23, 2016 16:50:02 GMT
I'm curious on thoughts about Hanwei from the collective hive here. The main companies in question have been ones that are based in India. Is Hanwei a cut above these Indian companies in quality?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 20:11:29 GMT
Hanwei makes superior products but they didn't venture much into the modern Western edged weapons and I also suspect that, considering how expensive their gunto range is, if they ever do make cavalry sabres the prices would be very high.
Was thinking about it last night and remembered that current Army swords are almost all made in India: for example all Commonwealth, German (WKC, Horster) and French current regulation swords come from India (assembled or forged there) and these are not crowbars even though they are not as durable as last century swords they are still good pieces of steel. Windlass makes some of these swords I believe.
The problem then is not much that the swords are done in India (in secret or not) but that the companies that make the repros (WeaponEdge and Universal Swords for example) don't follow the same standards and instead of making swords capable of acting like their ancestors they are doing just decorative pieces. There is a reason the British government doesn't have contracts with these guys for their swords...
Worse is they can do some acceptable swords: the French F1, the Imperial Guard Grenadier sword and the British Prince of Wales are some examples that the potential is there but it seems the companies just don't care to maintain that so neither will I.
Besides some of us are now financially limited: at the current CAD dollar rate the USD is now just as high as the euro so 350$ (500CAD) for a nice looking crowbar just won't do for me...I'm with Aronk for that matter, if I have to spend that much money I want something that handles good for the price. Exit all Indian repros as a result.
|
|
|
Post by Afoo on Jan 24, 2016 5:22:16 GMT
I have owned two of their swords, and both were pretty much flawless in terms of construction and execution. Everything was well made, the blades had excellent taper and finish. Their blades are a bit undersized on some models, but thats an issue with the design and not the execution, and definitely something which you will know ahead of time when you buy one of their swords.
Basically, it does exactly what it says according to the stats on KoA - no surprises. Too bad a lot of their older stuff is OOP though.
|
|
|
Post by Jayhawk on Jan 24, 2016 5:47:34 GMT
I just have the Hanwei Chinese Cutting Sword...and it's flawless...simply a wonderful piece of steel, and beautiful as well. It is far and away my finest reproduction/modern sword. My son has a CS sabre (can't recall the model), and I think it's really very nice as well. He briefly had a Universal sword (another sabre), but we had to return it due to two cracks in the blade from the forging process to KOA. It looked great, but I've just read on this board of Universal having fairly inconsistent quality. I've had good luck with Windlass, though...3 different pieces, all very nice (one rapier, one Scottish dirk, and an ax.
Eric
|
|
|
Post by Afoo on Jan 24, 2016 6:01:27 GMT
The poignard is the deal of the day on MRL - so perhaps you can add another!
If you go to KoA, you will see that all of the "Munitions grade" stuff is from Universal or WEI. That alone might be a warning. I bought the Munitions grade Hussar sabre (as detailed above). However, it is still listed as being in stock. This tells me that a) they are bad at updating their website, which seems unlikely, or b) that that they received multiple duds in the same shipment, and that the one I bought was not a one-off.
The sabre itself looks very nice though, and am sure that if I bought a non-munitions grade one from KoA it would be fine (the fact that they sell Munitions Grade stuff indicates that they at least check it upon arrival for defects). As such, the end effect on the consumer may not be that great. It just serves more as a testament to the different production philosophies of the various forges.
|
|
|
Post by Jayhawk on Jan 24, 2016 6:29:28 GMT
Is my memory off, or was there no munitions grade category before they started selling Universal and WEI? That's my memory...there was a section of blemished items, but it was not extensive.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 24, 2016 9:29:47 GMT
Is my memory off, or was there no munitions grade category before they started selling Universal and WEI? That's my memory...there was a section of blemished items, but it was not extensive. Little bit of marketing genius at work in drumming up the "munitions grade" tag. Not being a seller myself, I have no first hand experience with the evolution of exchanges and discounting allowed in the trade. Shipping costs and lag times in getting things inter continent has forced a rethink in what to do with delivered seconds. Passing on servicable, blemished items to consumers seems to work. I like it because I've managed to get scabbards for antiques in 4 instances of late. :)
|
|
|
Post by Jayhawk on Jan 24, 2016 14:19:35 GMT
LOL...that's an innovative way to use the munitions section. What confused me was that to me, munitions, would imply combat worthy, a weapon of the line so to speak. When I first heard of the section, I assumed they were simply more basic items...the kind of stuff you'd send out with the less well off soldiers of the era.
Thank goodness I read the background information closely, and read some comments about munitions grade on this forum.
I do have a Roberts variant 1898 Spanish sabre that needs a scabbard, though! I wonder if there is anything in the munitions section that would work for that?
|
|
|
Post by aronk on Jan 24, 2016 16:58:31 GMT
Speaking of using Universal etc. for scabbards, I'm thinking of picking up one of these (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=USS129&name=British+Royal+Navy+Dress+Saber) for the scabbard, as I just purchased an original with a weak and somewhat damaged scabbard. I'll probably try to dump the actual sword off on someone, because the KOA stats make it sound like a crowbar.
|
|