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Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 19, 2016 1:44:37 GMT
This is a conversation. I'm not writing this as an exposez, indictment, or tattle. This is some musing on what I've seen and experienced in my meager 7 years of collecting.
Today KoA put up a broadside announcing they had new items from Weapons Edge India, the other half of the Chouhan family operations in Johdpur, India. Just in the last year KoA and Universal Sword struck up a distribution partnership for the US. USI and WEI are competitors offering similar (actually exact copies) of the same lines; although both occasionally will count some coo, coming out with a proprietary item.
About 18 mos or so past Empire Costumne of Dinant France, a company supposed to have relied for years on USI for their swords, announced exclusive productions of officer swords with historic Bluing and Gilt application. This was a major upgrade to swords available of the replica market since the 1980s.
Last year I was contacted by WEI asking me if I could explain the B&G process to them. I couldn't. Gave them some refs. In 8 mos WEI provides KoA with 5 sabres all of which are the same swords available from EC. This is quite inexplicable. At the same time Yves Guinhut, at EC, starts posting editorials at his site about not buying fakes, and only shopping with him for his "true" products.
I have found that in the past 7 years of dealing with these folks I've had more smoke blown up my arse by them, than I sucked into my lungs in 40 years of Camel smoking. Good luck figuring out who's who in this business, or where the real forges are and who's using what to smith and furbish what comes out wholesale.
Honestly, I'm wrting this and chuckling. The intrigues are as arcane as cold war intelligence shadow wars.
Whatever transpired, WEI is nicking ECs US market so far as availability of these sabres go. (KoA says limited items and the Chouhans are desperately slow in resupply.)
If WEI wants to blaze new ground there are all sorts of options in their inventory to B&G besides tap ECs source. Eagle sabres and spadroons, for instance.
Cheers
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 2:38:32 GMT
I think the amusement for me was stumbling upon an image gif that used to be the intro to Discriminating General (Military Heritage) also found on one of the India sellers. I had come across several "makers" through Ali Baba. That, more than a decade ago and Empire Costume began.
I sure haven't bought from any of them but I have little doubt there are a number of shops that sellers buy from. Windlass is an example of drawing from more than one source. It is evident that we see the same models from more than one source.
The B&G decoration not hard to describe as far as the methods go. In conversation with one antique dealer, we soon got around to discussing mercury levels found in Birmingham graveyards.If India is using the traditional method, I hope they are taking due caution and safety into consideration.
In the end, the market seems to continue growing and the reproductions offer an opportunity for collectors. Especially so when considering original pieces in primo condition command an extreme price.
Me? I am a bit of a bottom scraper finding some real deals I can appreciate. I'd much rather spend the mid three figure money on originals, even if a sword might not be a stellar example. Truly for me these past few months have been acquiring knives, when I should be saving pennies on another sword. My excuse is that knives take up less space (ys sure).
I guess my stance is why worry about India production when there are endless possibilities to buy antiques.
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Post by bfoo2 on Jan 19, 2016 6:04:59 GMT
What is more disconcerting is the improving quality and diversity of reproductions might make it easier for unscrupulous dealers to pass them off as authentic...
Also a bit of a shame... seemed to me like Empire Costume was running a good rep for a while...
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 19, 2016 16:12:48 GMT
This is one of those stories where the truth never will be revealed, or only by accident, if one of the members of the ,,conspiracy " slips and tells us something that pulls all the pieces together. 1. Mr. Guinhut is highly annoyed when I ask him: These are Weapon Edge sabres right? Non, non, how could I think such a thing. ,,We never work with WE'' His stuff, at that time, must come from somewhere, so Universal it is, OR GUINHUT MADE A DEAL WITH ONE OF THE SUPPLIERS WORKING WITH UNIVERSAL. This man does seem to travel a lot to India and when one takes a look, there are legio small outfits that make the exact same stuff as WE and U. carry. So, a lot is done via small outfits or third parties. Indian Jungle. Lots of smoke. Dealings in backrooms. 2. Mr. Guinhut, very proudly, tells me he found a new supplier for his blades in Czechia and has his new blades BG there too. The hilts are a little better too around that time, but I am sure he does not have them made in France. The cost would be too high. There is a ( remote ) possibility he went to Marocco, but I am betting he has the better hilts ( still ) made at Universal, or a third party in India, read ,,a supplier to U'', who can deliver the hilts at a third of the already low cost of Marrocan forges. While WE is slinking into the background at this stage, the Universal stuff gets better and better. Note the decoration and casting detail on the bronze and the correction of the upside down cannon on the ring bracelets on the Train d'Artillery scabbard, which annoyed Mr. Guinhut ,,very very much, really'', but he nevertheless sold to anybody and his aunt. He stated that it was his work that got the problem corrected, both on that scabbard and the casting of various hilt parts. Also some new or improved models enter the Universal stage. 3. I ask Mr. Guinhut how he does with the forge in Czechia. Reply: ,, I have never worked with Czechia''. WTF????? 4. All of this time I hear noises from the Guinhut front, that a. it took him 2 years to get the BG done ( in Czechia ) and b. that he wanted to expand the business to the American market, but the logistical problems were enormous. 5. Before you can say ,,Guinhut'', U has BG sabres at KOA. I do not say they cannot be produced there ( in India ), but the cost of a good oven, electrical or gas, is high, too high for a small third party working for WE or U or , do not forget, Deepeeka, or all of them together and you need a big one too to be able to do large numbers at the time. For consideration, I know for sure of one outfit in India that has such an oven and who has used it for decades: Windlass. Maybe they got it from the British Government at the time of WWII when they worked for them, I do not know, but Windlass is the only one who uses said oven to be able to deliver a constant industrial scale supply of good tempered swords and knives and what have you. To be able to do this they must have some sort of electrical plant, some backup system, because the energy supply in India is not very reliable. 6. So, I do not see a third party small outfit in the grip of U. do the BG work. Neither do I see U do it, though the use of Mercury would suggest otherwise. Indian environment laws are lacks or non existant. Also a dinner party with certain officials, where certain presents are gifted upon the local boobies, would ease the way for any businessman. But production costs would be soaring sky high. Which brings me to 7. Are the BG blades produced in Europe? Constant energy supply is ensured, anyway before Germany made a mess of it with their bloody windmills. The knowhow is here too. The tools are here. A total industry geared to steel is here too and Czechia has been doing that work since the Celts and they are still famous for it. Against this argument stands the gilding part. The use of Mercury is ,,Verboten" and a heavy fine is waiting for anybody even thinking about the stuff. Getting a license is very difficult. 8. So. Is the nice yellow material we see on the BG blades gold? I bet my ass it aint. There are so many alloys to choose from that look 100% like gold and are quite safe and not ,,Verboten" and CHEAP too, that it would highly surprise me if the stuff we see is what Mr. Guinhut and Co suggest it is. 9. Weapon Edge, Universal. That is one jungle filled with scorpions and flying spiders and meercats and crocodiles with very big teeth. I am not going to even try to contemplate the goings on in what is so innocently called,, The Indian Family". That's for Dave. He is military. He was trained to do that stuff. 10. For the production on some largish scale of BG blades one is looking for: A. constant energy supply. B. big oven, for the blades must be of a constant quality. Which gives us C, a facillity were such an oven is already present, a large forge, were such ovens are used for tempering and D. an environment were a constant level of quality of work is garanteed. Which brings us to E. Low cost production in a politically stable environment. I have my bets set on Czechia. As to WE asking Dave about the ins and outs of BG work, I see that as a ploy to find out where the blades come from. Anybody with half a brain can Google BG and find out for themselves in 5 minutes. But of course I am quite wrong. We are dealing with a French kinda Celt on one side and an Indian family on the other. Both entities are known to revel in multi layered scheming and deception, on a level that makes the antics as observed in the renound American ( what else? ) tv series ,,Dalles '' , which our mothers, God bless them, so enjoyed watching, look like a summer afternoon High Tea at the local Nunnery.
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Post by Afoo on Jan 19, 2016 18:31:25 GMT
Just a minor detail - I believe modern methods exist for depositing gold which do not require mercury. Cyanide is the big one used in industry, though not much safer.
Thiosulfate is a more modern approach which has succeeded both Mercury and Cyanide based methods in countries with even the most basic health and safety regulations. Like cyanide, the thiosulfate groups can solubalize gold - in this case into an aqueous solution, enabling it to be deposited very selectively on the blade. It is relatively harmless.
I personally have no clue as to what intrigues are going on behind the scenes. I just put this out there as evidence that the B and G process *could* be done without violating every environmental and health and safety regulation in the EU
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 19, 2016 18:59:22 GMT
Okay... The extra cost for let's call them The Firms, would be very high. They would have to invest in training, the oven etc. etc. And do not forget the cost of the failed batches and generators for energy supply. You need a clean environment to do the work too. You know as well as I do that clean and India, well, it just does not work out. Ever seen the Weapon Edge video? Why do these investments and go through all that trouble when the entire knowhow and production infrastructure is already present somewhere else? In a relatively low cost country. The cost of shipping for them is peanuts and right now the shipping firms are begging for trade and so are the forges and casters. I bet the Firms can set the price right now. Your knowhow on the gilding front makes the case stronger that the BG is done in Europe, I think. This is fun, even when we or I are wrong!
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Post by Afoo on Jan 19, 2016 22:24:20 GMT
Not saying that its what they are doing. But just raising it as a possibility. This method is used in mining (dissolving gold from low grade ores and reconstituting it as a pure nugget), so there is some industrial expertise out there.
I do agree that they are likely made in India or somewhere with lax safety, using some less than savoury methods....but always like to present an alternative if I can. The similarities with the EC items and the WEI/US items is very fishy at the very least.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 20, 2016 9:15:45 GMT
The usual suspects on this forum agree 100% that is about time things changed. There were lots of long discussions and lots of trying to figure out a reason why the forges do not, or at least to a degree we would so very much like to see. We are just a small minority. As long as the public buys there is no need for the forges to change their tune. They trow in a bone every now and then, like the Princess of Wales or give the Eglinton a 7mm thick blade and that gives us the faux feeling change is in the air. Another thing is that ,,we'' are fragmented. They may get a ,,WTF $11# '' email every now and then, but that has no impact. Yet another thing is that, I believe, they have very little space to manouver in. There is low margins and an ever growing cost of overhead. Also, swords are not the things one needs. So in times when the economy is doing alright there is some surplus money for the public to do fun stuff with. When the screws come on that changes. Sales come down. So, I think they are stuck in a rut at the one hand and have very little play room for innovation on the other. 200 people wanting something more are not going to change that. That said, I would love to have Dave have a conference call with CO's from Windlass, Hanwei, WE and Universal.8-) He would be perfect. While I am writing this I have a great big smile on my snout. I pay 100$ for that tape.
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Post by Turok on Jan 20, 2016 17:47:52 GMT
Have Cold Steel make the ultimate Dave Kelly Saber! It would be the greatest weapon ever devised by mortal hands!
But seriously, there needs to be more transparency in these businesses.
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Post by bfoo2 on Jan 20, 2016 22:50:27 GMT
Well, seeing how their idealized 'Lynn C. Thompson" sabre went down, I have my doubts about their ability to craft a "Dave Kelly, lord of the sabres" sabre
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 20, 2016 23:37:57 GMT
Well, seeing how their idealized 'Lynn C. Thompson" sabre went down, I have my doubts about their ability to craft a "Dave Kelly, lord of the sabres" sabre :D Thanks for embarassing me once again. ;-| The only thing I am lord of is "enthusiastic chatter". From the tone of the discussion wise heads here all are pretty much in agreement as to the why and how of the state of the business. The only way to get to the next level is to possess antiques. Patient hunting can reward you with some really great swords. Cheers
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Post by bfoo2 on Jan 20, 2016 23:43:15 GMT
...or invest in a belt sander and angle grinder. I potty-trained your Thompson Sabre like that, Dave Kelly. Grips still awful, but a little taper goes a long way...
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Post by bfoo2 on Jan 20, 2016 23:45:44 GMT
Also, I suspect that complicated supply chain issues plague most products, not just swords. Given globalization, it's hard enough to determine if the "cod" in your fish 'n' chips comes from the pristine Canadian wilderness, or from some agent-orange contaminated cesspit in former Indochina. Heck, hard to know if the cod is actually cod in the first place, and not soylent green...
I have little experience in the dealings of EC and US/WE, but I suspect that WE made contact with the original supplier for EC, and they agreed to sell them the same wares behind Guinhut's back. I can't say if that's unscrupulous or not...
On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what a little competition in the "high-end" repro market (between WE and EC) could mean for us consumers...
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Post by Afoo on Jan 21, 2016 1:42:30 GMT
Apparently, more name calling on behalf of EC
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Post by aronk on Jan 21, 2016 2:24:57 GMT
All of this nonsense is the primary reason I elected to stop purchasing replicas. That plus the fact that they never love up to my expectations for them. Antiques never disappoint l if you put the effort in and do your homework. Why buy two half-arsed swords when you can have one full-arsed sword?
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Post by Afoo on Jan 21, 2016 2:41:26 GMT
Because if the arse is too big, you might shift the POB too far back :P
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Post by bfoo2 on Jan 21, 2016 6:31:10 GMT
All of this nonsense is the primary reason I elected to stop purchasing replicas. That plus the fact that they never love up to my expectations for them. Antiques never disappoint l if you put the effort in and do your homework. Why buy two half-arsed swords when you can have one full-arsed sword? Well, it's nice to have something that you can pick up on a whim and swing around for fun without worrying about re-applying oil and/or breaking. Also shamelessly and guiltlessly generate the scabbard-drawing "schwinnngg" noise
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 21, 2016 7:50:02 GMT
The crux of the matter is that we can jump up and down chattering like little monkeys and feeling very pleased with ourselves after scoring a few points in sometimes entertaining discussions and then go back to painting the garage, but all of that is not getting us anywhere. There is no contact with the parties in question. Do they get to read our complaints? Ever had a discussion with a CO from Weapon Edge or Universal? With some follow up? I don't think so. It's more like talking to the hand, ain't it. I have the feeling they never get to hear our complaints, they insulated themselves and only come out and talk (with Dave) when they want something. There is no channel, just a big wall. How do you think to get the message across? Any ideas? I thought about using Guinhut as the conduit, but I know what he will say......... Bombarding them with emails will not work either. Ever seen that video of the guys playing at ,,front office'' on the Weapon Edge website? Or was it on Weapon Edge's Youtube channel? I mean, don't bother.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 21, 2016 15:49:50 GMT
www.kultofathena.com/images%5CWES1075_3_l.jpgA model EC does not have. WTF. It looks indeed like WE took over from U/EC. Like I said: Bloody snake pit. I am out. I will not be discussing this taper stuff anymore until there is a (two way) channel to the High Command.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 18:21:00 GMT
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