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Post by campb812 on Sept 30, 2015 20:45:55 GMT
Hi, I recently talked with a man willing to sell me his three Marto swords; two of which has certificates of authenticity but the third one does not. He claims the third one is very rare and is 25 years old. I am afraid of buying a fake or copy. How do I make sure the swords are real (the pictures of the certificates that he posted don't say Marto on them, but the whole certificate isn't in the photo. They seem to have the 'M' emblem on the swords just below the guard, but its hard to see exact details. He is selling the three at a very low price $200, do Marto swords lose that much value pre-owned? or is that a sign that they might be too good to be true?
Thank you for any help!!
Ally
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Post by nddave on Sept 30, 2015 20:49:08 GMT
Do you have pictures to post here so we can see what you're seeing or a link to his seller page?
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Post by campb812 on Sept 30, 2015 21:07:54 GMT
Do you have pictures to post here so we can see what you're seeing or a link to his seller page? Sure, here are some: The gold one is the one without a certificate and he didn't have many photos of the Lancelot sword, just one with all three showing the whole swords.
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Post by campb812 on Sept 30, 2015 22:05:19 GMT
Do the certificates look real? And do Marto swords retain their value?
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Post by nddave on Sept 30, 2015 23:00:09 GMT
Hard to say.
The gold one looks like the Ivanhoe sword. Significant differences are the Marto sword has a green jewel in the pommel and there's no red color on the handle or etchings on the blade.
I can't seem to find anything regarding the certificates but in the pics you've shown of the Charlemagne and Lancelot there are significant differences between the Marto versions and his. Namely the material of the hilt is different on the Charlemagne as well as the etching and I can't find any pics of the actual Lancelot with etching on the blade.
Honestly these look like knock offs to me and I'd stay clear of them. Sure $200 isn't too bad for three swords but if you're looking for authentic Marto Swords I'd stay clear. One major reason of value and interest in Marto Swords is that they're basically jewelry with a blade. The hilts are made of real silver and gold and the jewels are actually real jewels. Your pretty much paying for the materials used and the craftsmanship, not the functionality or authenticity you would from a historical or custom sword of the same price value.
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Post by campb812 on Sept 30, 2015 23:08:31 GMT
Yea, I found only one picture with the Ivanhoe that was gold with red gems; and I can't find a website listing the value or anything. I was hoping these would be real, but I figured it was too good to be true. Thanks!! One more question, in your opinion do swords lose a significant amount of value over time? I am looking for a sword that I am in love with and unfortunately it looks like I might end up with an expensive custom sword. My wife, who doesn't share my passion for swords, claims that it would be a bad investment as she thinks the sword will be worth less than what we payed for. Were talking about possibly a Fable Blade, if I can save up enough. What do you think?
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Post by nddave on Oct 1, 2015 0:11:12 GMT
Yea, I found only one picture with the Ivanhoe that was gold with red gems; and I can't find a website listing the value or anything. I was hoping these would be real, but I figured it was too good to be true. Thanks!! One more question, in your opinion do swords lose a significant amount of value over time? I am looking for a sword that I am in love with and unfortunately it looks like I might end up with an expensive custom sword. My wife, who doesn't share my passion for swords, claims that it would be a bad investment as she thinks the sword will be worth less than what we payed for. Were talking about possibly a Fable Blade, if I can save up enough. What do you think? Like all collectibles there is appraised value and collectors value. Just because something is worth $XXX.xx doesnt necessarily mean you'll get $XXX.xx back on it or more. One benefit the Marto swords have regarding value is the precious metals and jewels used. Even if nobody gives a damn about it being "Excalibur" or whatever, it's still has a hilt made of 24k gold encrusted with rubies, if you get what mean. When it comes to say a Fable Blade by Brennan, is it worth it's value? In my opinion absolutely, then again I'm a sword collector that appreciates finely crafted swords who respects his craftsmanship. Does that mean others will? Simply put no. If anything (like your wife for example) they call you crazy for spending that kind of money on a sword because they don't understand the collectors value or the craftsmanship value. To anyone else it's just a piece of steel or a sword. It's the same thing with comic books, art or even toothpick cathedrals. If you're into them it's worth it if not, no. That's why it's better so sell or collaborate with others of the same interests when it comes to curating value.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Oct 1, 2015 0:49:51 GMT
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Post by Afoo on Oct 1, 2015 4:17:46 GMT
I believe that antique swords will appreciate over time because they have two things in their favour: there are fewer examples of them every year, and there are certain periods in history (American civil war, the glory of the Victorian Britain and their Commonwealth, etc) which will always be cool, and items which hark back to those eras will always be in demand.
That said, they do require maintenance and care, and will not appreciate nearly as quickly or as reliably as other forms of investments. I don't think you will loose money on antiques, but you should not view it as a means to gain money.
A lot also depends on where you live. I am in Canada and most sellers are in the states, so I pay international shipping to buy my swords. When I go to sell my swords, most potential buyers will also be in the states, so I will pay shipping again. Between that and customs fees both ways, I go into sword collecting knowing I will likely not get my money back.
Mind you, I have been collecting for only a year. However, I have seen the prices for swords increase on e-bay slightly. However, you may want to talk to someone more experienced for better advice - this is just my two cents.
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Post by nddave on Oct 1, 2015 4:35:59 GMT
Found a little more on the sword without a certificate, it seems it's a variant of the Ivanhoe that was released as a reproduction of the sword of Methos from the Highlander TV series. It was made by Marto and can been seen in the pic below as #533. Now that doesn't really confirm that this sword is that one as there are differences and this one offered very well could be still a knock off that's out of production. The only thing I really see on this specific sword is above the main blade etching there seems to be a similar makers mark of Marto just below the guard that matches Marto's mark. Could also be easily recreated by a knock off but that really is the only thing going for it as being authentic. Note that the other two are missing this "Marto stamp". Pic sucks but it's the best I could find that matches this specific sword. The next pic is of a knock off of their Solomon Sword. Notice the fake gold plating and blade etching look very similar to the ones he's offering. These go for anywhere from $40-$80 depending on the website. Anyway if anything I'd contact the seller and ask for better pics and more proof, or just let it be. Hope this helps!
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Oct 1, 2015 9:49:40 GMT
I would suggest caution, a cheap knock-off can be had for about $25 bucks so the seller gains 200% and you get "cheap"
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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on Oct 1, 2015 19:53:31 GMT
Just for some clarity,..Marto sword hilts ARE NOT MADE OF GOLD OR SILVER!! Gold and silver plating,...yes low (industrial) grade semi precious stones at best as well. Stainless steel blades make these the prettiest of the SLO's, and i wouldnt call any of them real swords.
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Post by nddave on Oct 1, 2015 20:48:39 GMT
Just for some clarity,..Marto sword hilts ARE NOT MADE OF GOLD OR SILVER!! Gold and silver plating,...yes low (industrial) grade semi precious stones at best as well. Stainless steel blades make these the prettiest of the SLO's, and i wouldnt call any of them real swords. Do you not realize gold plating is still gold? Do you realize what the cost of a solid hilt of gold or silver would cost? Estimating the weight of the hilt being at least 2 pounds of solid gold on one of these swords would be around $30,000 dollars in gold. Of course these aren't solid gold, if they were the price for the craftsmanship plus gold alone would be outrageous! Same with the stones, know how much pure polished ruby of that size on the pommel goes for? Sure they're not functional swords but they do have a market and here at SBG we've never simply focused on "battle ready" just like we haven't ever simply focused on the sub-$300 market. If we did Fable Blades, Albion, even Marto would be off limits for discussion. Being the friendliest sword forum means being open to all groups of sword enthusiasts and educating them on the good and bad. If this guy knows these swords are decorative only and that is his passion for collecting that should be respected as should the market Marto is in should be respected. They offer high quality decorative swords. If they offered them as fully functional then there would be a red flag. Just because a sword isn't functional doesn't mean that sword isn't a sword. If that was the case you better run down to the thousands of museums holding bearing and ceremonial swords on display from hundreds of years ago and tell them they're not real swords since they don't cut stuff. I'm sure you'll get an even bigger ear full.
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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on Oct 1, 2015 23:08:36 GMT
I wasnt trying to open a can or anything,and i fail to see where I disrespected Marto in any way. Try passing a plated engagement ring off as "made of gold" and im willing to bet that your earful surpasses mine. I made reference to your comment regarding the hilt composition and its "value" in an effort to clarify what could very easily be misunderstood by the less experienced. The value of the gold and gems on the best of their offerings is not as your post might suggest , and for me to clarify that is in no way deserving of your rant. Even you make the distinction that they're decorative, so what's with the condescension?
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Post by nddave on Oct 1, 2015 23:39:38 GMT
I wasnt trying to open a can or anything,and i fail to see where I disrespected Marto in any way. Try passing a plated engagement ring off as "made of gold" and im willing to bet that your earful surpasses mine. I made reference to your comment regarding the hilt composition and its "value" in an effort to clarify what could very easily be misunderstood by the less experienced. The value of the gold and gems on the best of their offerings is not as your post might suggest , and for me to clarify that is in no way deserving of your rant. Even you make the distinction that they're decorative, so what's with the condescension? Plated gold is still real gold and the amount of gold used is still of value. A ring is a ring and is still hundreds of dollars being a small object made of solid gold. Sure something small like a ring gold plated isn't going to have much value as the amount of gold used is minimal, but when you have something significantly bigger like a sword hilt fully plated the value of the amount of gold used is there. I was just reiterating your comment that something Gold plated isn't of value. It depends on what karat and how much is used. Regarding value, when it comes to precious metals or stones the values are always fluctuating due to the market. Gold could go up or down and affect any item made of it be that plating or solid. If he has a good pound of plating on that sword (completely unlikely) for example its worth what a pound of 24K gold is going for. Its value is all decided by the weight and karat. The fact that it has gold plating or not makes it technically more valuable than a Valiant or Albion of the same price because Gold is always valuable (especially compared to steel)and craftsmanship is not. I wouldn't consider Marto swords SLOs due to the craftsmanship and detail put to them. Just like I don't consider anything from United Cutlery or Kit Rae a SLO due to the same reasons. Cheap $20-60 cast metal BudK knock off stuff claiming carbon steel and battle ready? Absolutely. It just seems like you were going off on them as being slos due to them being made of stainless and not functional. In a decorative sword Stainless would actually be the preferred steel used because it will hold up better than a high carbon steel being touched or left hanging around. A Marto made of 1060 or 1045 would be that much more needing of maintenance and probably not worth it to those that collect them or use them for ceremony or display (which if you read any testimonials of buyers those are the primary reasons for purchase)especially if they're a decoration. If there was any condescension it was due to how you worded your post nocking him for his interest and the Marto swords for being non functional slos, like they were something inferior. As I mentioned above there are many different enthusiasts of swords and makes of swords and all should be respected and welcome here at SBG (except of course for the shady and misleading). That was my primary point. If you took that wrong and more as a personal attack I'm sorry, I'll re-read yours as well and see if maybe I read something wrong.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Oct 2, 2015 11:00:33 GMT
Hey guys ! stop winding each other up, you can have a discussion without getting on a soap-box !
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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on Oct 2, 2015 15:11:47 GMT
like it or not, gold plated is not in fact "made of gold" (to quote YOU-verbatim-)and i pointed that out for the benefit of those new members that could be misled. To state the FACT that very low quality gemstones are used is not a negative opinion, its the truth.
A sword that isn't by definition a true sword is in fact a Sword Like Object.If not, then the same logic would infer that a stuffed animal is in some way a real animal,........it's not. There is nothing whatsoever untoward about stating that marto offerings aren't real swords, again they're not. A sword by definition is a weapon, and marto blades are not weapons,......are they? I'm terribly sorry that you dont like the way that sounds, but its true nonetheless. The value of the gold and gems on any of their models is not worth what it would take to retrieve it. Take any one of them to a jeweler, a goldsmith or a gemologist and ask what they'll give for it. I never knocked Marto, and have in no way shape or form deviated form the guidelines we work within here at the "worlds friendliest forum". It would appear that you are the one that needs the reminder, as your contrarian attitude is highly argumentative at best. The only one being disrespectful within this thread is you.
I've tried to be a concise as possible, yet you want to preach about unrelated points of contention that just do not exist within the confines of my post.
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Post by nddave on Oct 2, 2015 17:56:54 GMT
Double post.
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Post by nddave on Oct 2, 2015 17:57:45 GMT
Post evidence of your claims of 24K gold plating not being real gold or the appraised values of the stones and plating used on Marto swords and I'll agree with you. Until then everything you just posted is opinion and hear say. Again a sword doesn't have to be functional to be a sword that is a misconception that has been thrown around here for a long time due to people uneducated on the subject misreading the message of SBG which initially was to differentiate the functional from the non-functional. A "real sword" as you put it is yes technically a functional weapon of war. But for hundreds of years civilizations have been making non-functional ceremonial swords or bearing swords and these are still considered "real swords" even if they are non-functional. Either way I'm not very fond of derailing threads, especially help threads so if you would like to continue this debate lets do so in PM.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 16:12:27 GMT
Even items plated with 24ct gold have little value in actual wealth. The plating is microns thick. Plated rings, bracelets and earrings priced accordingly. You can even plate plastic with 24ct gold. Watches and other items similarly. Rolled(rgp)/filled gold is a separate matter and it wears better.
"Real" gold plating will be listed as such and despite it being so, recovery of substantial amounts of gold from plated items is truly minimal. Again, microns thick. That is why women often abhor plated earrings because of the galvanic reaction of skin acids and why plated watches have the same type of wear. Silver plated tableware has more plating but still wears in time.
I doubt Marto is spending much on adding their gold and silver plating. Perhaps more than real junk jewelry but certainly not a great deal
At any rate, true Marto and the old Art Gladius items are good decorators some collect and are willing to pay for. Not unlike one spending money on antiques, most of which are displayed or stored. I have spent much more over time on antiques than reproductions I have actually used for practical purposes. Indeed, I even did buy another reproduction this past year to cut with but more have been traded or sold off. I just sold off my first reproduction from the 1990s and actually got about 60% of my original cost. In today's dollars, a little less but the comparable Windlass sword would still cost about the same.
Someone looking for a specific Marto would probably easily be prepared to pay 60% of retail. One can't really go with the philosophy of used is worth 50% of new. It all depends. Someone recently put up a couple of Arms&Armor swords at about 120% and more for one of them. Bought more than a dozen years ago and asking for much more than they paid. My one remaining A&A was bought used and I'd sell it at about cost which would be %50 of today's retail. I paid about 80% of retail back then. My price would sell it quickly.
Watch Ebay for what Marto items actually sell for and one will get an idea of worth.
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