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Post by jmax5105 on Sept 30, 2015 18:52:25 GMT
I'm considering purchasing a Katana - something less expensive to start with, like a Musashi 1060 or Bamboo Warrior for my first Katana. I'm interested in Katanas mostly because of the historical aspect of the sword and can see myself having several more in my collection (gradually getting more and more expensive, I assume ) over the coming years. I find them quite fascinating, actually. This is just my personal take (for me, not for everyone), but I feel that if I am going to own something that I could possibly do some real damage with, I should at least know how to wield it a little. I would like to involve myself in some basic training for the use of these swords, not that I desire to become a master swordsman at all, just that I want to learn to control my motions and the sword for safety purposes. I don't ever see myself 'needing' to use it, but do feel that I need to develop a certain level of respect for these swords (even though my first will be a cheap one). More than likely, my first sword will sit on it's mantle above the fireplace for a while until I feel comfortable enough to try cutting some water bottles, mats, etc. I'm just looking for some beginner - and probably not LONG term, training to get me started. My questions: 1- Are there any good online training sites that give recommendations / exercises for progressing all the way from a beginner status? 2- If I were to look around locally for a dojo, what are things that I should ask and how do I know if it will be a good place to start? 3- Do any of you have recommendations for other places to start? i.e., books, people, etc. 4- Where do I even start looking locally to FIND a good dojo that trains with/for weapons? I hope this wasn't too long for my first post. You seem like a great bunch here and I appreciate all the info I've been able to gather just from reading some of your posts, so THANKS!!! -Jason
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Post by Krelian on Sept 30, 2015 20:26:44 GMT
Hi Jason, I think it's great that you're interested in safe and proper use of the sword(s) you're buying! Even though you aren't necessarily looking to dedicate your life to becoming a "master swordsman" you may still find you enjoy studying traditional swordsmanship as a hobby. There's nothing at all wrong with that! How many people out there golf just because they enjoy it rather than because they plan on playing competitively? 1. I know the video series at www.youtube.com/user/34R4K1/videos is commonly recommended around here. (These videos were ripped from a DVD series that can be legitimately purchased as well) Also, the SBG website itself has a very rough quick and dirty overview here: www.sword-buyers-guide.com/japanese-sword-training.html Lastly, the United Backyard Cutter website has some short articles on the subject: www.unitedbackyardcutter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=610 2. Good questions to ask include: "What is the name of the style?" "Who did you learn and/or receive a teaching license from?" "What organizations (if any) do you belong to?" The tricky part is that you have no idea what good answers to these questions are. You'll have to do some research on your own or ask around here or on other forums to learn if the answers you were given are any good. Another good question with my OPINION included is: "Do you require me to learn any other arts?" Many martial arts are VERY complimentary to learning swordsmanship -BUT- generally there should be NO obligation to learn another art in addition to swordsmanship. In my (small) experience most places that require you to study another martial art first isn't teaching a very good sword style. 3. and 4. Well the Internet, but the tricky part is you sort of already have to know what you're looking for. If you're comfortable sharing the City/State/Country you live in we could probably give you an idea of what your nearest good options are.
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Post by jmax5105 on Sept 30, 2015 20:33:46 GMT
Thanks Krelian, ALL great responses, THANKS! I am in the South Salt Lake City, UT area if anyone is from that area. Good idea!
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 30, 2015 23:07:34 GMT
Krelian had some good answers, but I'll add to them in my own way.
1- Are there any good online training sites that give recommendations / exercises for progressing all the way from a beginner status? The ones he posted are good, but there is a LOT of information missing from those videos. You can learn to run through some of the motions but a lot of the meaning is lost and a lost of things to look for are not mentioned at all. Shimabukuro sensei is a really good martial artist and is definitely legitimate though. You can supplement his videos with his book called flashing steel. It is a sort of manual for MJER. Keep in mind that this still won't be enough. A good teacher goes a long way.
2- If I were to look around locally for a dojo, what are things that I should ask and how do I know if it will be a good place to start? Aside from what was mentioned, lineage. No JSA should require colored belts. Do not take a class that requires you to wear a karategi (except for aikido but theysupplement hand to hand with swords, not the other way around, and niten) and never let's you wear hakama or learn karate/taekwando first. Another good thing is to ask their dan level. If they answer "I have a black belt in x," move along. Traditional JSA use dan rankings where 1st dan is what we would call a black belt and it means you are an upstarting beginner.
3- Do any of you have recommendations for other places to start? i.e., books, people, etc. Books to supplement your training. It is possible to learn from a book and be self taught, but it is hard and most people aren't adapt at learning form themselves enough to do so. There also tends to be the lack of people to train with. I recommend the usual book of five rings. Not to learn from, but to gauge how much you've learned. That book is hard to understand and gets easier when you understand more. The unfettered mind by takuan soho is good for philosophy. Some of us on here are adept at a martial art or two and would be willing to help. We can't substitute a real teacher though.
4- Where do I even start looking locally to FIND a good dojo that trains with/for weapons? Basically the internet. Google the school you are looking into and if you don't have one, google the schools near you. Sometimes you just have to take what you can get. If can't find anywhere that isn't a McDojo and you go into it with the right spirit, you can learn the sword with much patience and lost of experience and a very modest mind. This is the most difficult path and will lack the refining and application of a traditional koryu. Since you aren't after becoming the next Hyogonosuke or Ittosai, this might be enough for you.
Hope I was of some help. I'll try to help further any way I can.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 1, 2015 1:18:44 GMT
I would like to involve myself in some basic training for the use of these swords, not that I desire to become a master swordsman at all, just that I want to learn to control my motions and the sword for safety purposes. [...] I'm just looking for some beginner - and probably not LONG term, training to get me started. A dojo is not necessarily an efficient way to learn to control your motions with a sword for safety. It isn't their main goal. If you want to learn traditional use, a traditional armed martial art, or a modern sport, the suggestions above are good, and also (for sport), look at kendo. To learn movement, you need to move. Books and video can be a starting point, but you have to get out there and move to learn movement. Buy a bokken (wooden sword), and move. Practice cuts (in the air), practice stepping, stepping and cutting. Hang a plastic drink bottle (a tough plastic Coke bottle or similar is good) from a tree, clothesline, or whatever, and practice accuracy (cuts and thrusts). Don't worry about power, worry about smoothness, control, and accuracy. If you hit yourself, stop and think hard about what would have happened with a sharp steel sword. As well as Japanese sword places, you could also check local HEMA/WMA groups. If you can move with, cut with, thrust with a European longsword safely, you will be OK with a katana. So while it wouldn't teach you a traditional Japanese armed martial art, it'll fulfill your main aims. E.g.: trueedgeacademy.com/provo.html (don't know anything about them; just an example of a local (for you) group).
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 1, 2015 1:38:45 GMT
If you do choose a route where you get out and move, make sure you listen to your body. You can check starting points online (how to grip a sword, swinging motions, stances, etc), but you'll have to feel yourself out. If you swing and you feel too much tension in your shoulders the next day, you aren't swinging with your body and are powering with your arms. If you feel tension in your knees when you do sideways cuts, your footing is probably off. If you feel unbalanced, also check your footing. If you feel pulling in your wrists, you might be over swinging, same for elbows. Listening to yourself and how you move can tell you a lot about your form.
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Post by jam on Oct 1, 2015 11:14:29 GMT
If you just want to learn how to do a few cuts and not cause any injury to yourself, others, or the weapon, then the backyard cutters forum on here has advice. There's all you need to know there, IMO.
If you want to learn a Japanese sword art then try to locate your nearest ZNKR Kendo club. They will point you in the direction of bona fide koryu kenjutsu or iai.
Other than that I second what Krelian posted.
Edit, just to address some of what Kiyoshi said.
You do not need a menkyo kaiden for your first teacher, just someone affiliated with a genuine hombu koryu dojo or the ZNKR.
Also, the niten ichi ryu train in karate gi, samue etc, and that is a famous sword school with a few hundred practitioners worldwide - so I think it's fair to extrapolate that some other koryu may train in samue type gi too. It's certainly a flag, but not necessarily a big red one.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 1, 2015 12:51:59 GMT
Edit, just to address some of what Kiyoshi said. You do not need a menkyo kaiden for your first teacher, just someone affiliated with a genuine hombu koryu dojo or the ZNKR. Also, the niten ichi ryu train in karate gi, samue etc, and that is a famous sword school with a few hundred practitioners worldwide - so I think it's fair to extrapolate that some other koryu may train in samue type gi too. It's certainly a flag, but not necessarily a big red one. I edited that as I rembered that the menkyo system is only practiced in some koryu. And as to the karategi, I was referring to the American karate dojos that teach you showy sword moves after you get X belt color. HNIR sometimes practices in full samue, very true. I was mainly trying to point him away from Mcdojo. I suppose I over generalized a bit there. My main point is that you should look into where their art came from. Bona fide schools will not be afraid to mention their heritage. There aren't secret masters in Japan who they can't mention.
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Post by jmax5105 on Oct 1, 2015 15:39:29 GMT
Thank you ALL for your help with this. I think I've got at least a good starting point now. I REALLY appreciate you all taking some time to help me with my questions. Great group of people here!
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Post by Krelian on Oct 1, 2015 16:32:35 GMT
I did a brief spin around Google for you and found this: www.utahiaidokendo.com/school.htm It looks like they currently borrow space from: www.redlotusschool.com/iaido.html There might be other good options in the SLC area but this is one I found fairly quickly that I can feel safe about recommending. If you're interested I'd say your first step would be to call or e-mail and introduce yourself, from there they'll probably invite you to go watch a class or two and see if it's something you'd like to join. Just be polite and make sure you show up 10-15 minutes early and everything should go just fine.
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Post by jmax5105 on Oct 1, 2015 21:05:17 GMT
Thanks Krelian. I'll let you all know how it goes.
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Post by jam on Oct 2, 2015 11:54:01 GMT
Fair points, but koryu menkyo kaiden are really rare and usually associated with the absolute top tier and training in Japan. Probably raise a few eyebrows, to say the least, if he went to a US dojo demanding to see a menkyo kaiden.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 2, 2015 12:41:56 GMT
Again, I realized that and changed my reply to mention shihan, renshi, hanshi, and kyoshi which are given at certain dan grading in the modern system that even koryu sometimes use. Asking for their dan rank should be sufficient. Just to be safe I edited my post further and just simplified.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Oct 2, 2015 22:59:48 GMT
If you're serious (or even moderately serious) about joining a dojo, another suggestion I would add is to join a forum dedicated to martial arts like E-Budo www.e-budo.com There's tons of info on there for beginners to masters, including dojo listings (with ratings), and the advice given is generally good from knowledgable people.
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Post by zabazagobo on Oct 4, 2015 5:21:43 GMT
I'm considering purchasing a Katana - something less expensive to start with, like a Musashi 1060 or Bamboo Warrior for my first Katana. I'm interested in Katanas mostly because of the historical aspect of the sword and can see myself having several more in my collection (gradually getting more and more expensive, I assume ) over the coming years. I find them quite fascinating, actually. This is just my personal take (for me, not for everyone), but I feel that if I am going to own something that I could possibly do some real damage with, I should at least know how to wield it a little. I would like to involve myself in some basic training for the use of these swords, not that I desire to become a master swordsman at all, just that I want to learn to control my motions and the sword for safety purposes. I don't ever see myself 'needing' to use it, but do feel that I need to develop a certain level of respect for these swords (even though my first will be a cheap one). More than likely, my first sword will sit on it's mantle above the fireplace for a while until I feel comfortable enough to try cutting some water bottles, mats, etc. I'm just looking for some beginner - and probably not LONG term, training to get me started. My questions: 1- Are there any good online training sites that give recommendations / exercises for progressing all the way from a beginner status? 2- If I were to look around locally for a dojo, what are things that I should ask and how do I know if it will be a good place to start? 3- Do any of you have recommendations for other places to start? i.e., books, people, etc. 4- Where do I even start looking locally to FIND a good dojo that trains with/for weapons? I hope this wasn't too long for my first post. You seem like a great bunch here and I appreciate all the info I've been able to gather just from reading some of your posts, so THANKS!!! -Jason There are definitely plenty of insightful videos online, but most find it much, much more useful to receive direct instructions. Some styles such as Eishin Ryu have published several primers on forms, drills and conduct. Other members on this forum besides me are far more qualified to give you recommendations with regards to selecting a good dojo, but I would advise looking for a dojo that has been around for awhile and practices in a well-known style. Generally speaking, there are some odd "commercialized" martial arts out there that teach you things, they just might not be useful. I highly recommend several books to serve as primers on the mentality and manner of conduct necessary to wield the sword. I highly recommend Kenji Tokitsu's book on Musashi for its excellent translation of Musashi's work and a wide breadth of great supplemental material as well as Yagyu Munenori's "Hereditary Book on the art of war" often published as "The Life Giving Sword". Both of these books were written by some of the finest swordsmen who ever lived, so their insight is quite valuable. I also recommend checking out "The Demon's Sermon on the Martial Arts" by Issai Chozanshi for a more abstract take on the mentality of combat and practical finesse. All of these can be found on major booksellers' websites. Hope that helped some.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 4, 2015 5:47:56 GMT
There are definitely plenty of insightful videos online, but most find it much, much more useful to receive direct instructions. Some styles such as Eishin Ryu have published several primers on forms, drills and conduct. Other members on this forum besides me are far more qualified to give you recommendations with regards to selecting a good dojo, but I would advise looking for a dojo that has been around for awhile and practices in a well-known style. Generally speaking, there are some odd "commercialized" martial arts out there that teach you things, they just might not be useful. I highly recommend several books to serve as primers on the mentality and manner of conduct necessary to wield the sword. I highly recommend Kenji Tokitsu's book on Musashi for its excellent translation of Musashi's work and a wide breadth of great supplemental material as well as Yagyu Munenori's "Hereditary Book on the art of war" often published as "The Life Giving Sword". Both of these books were written by some of the finest swordsmen who ever lived, so their insight is quite valuable. I also recommend checking out "The Demon's Sermon on the Martial Arts" by Issai Chozanshi for a more abstract take on the mentality of combat and practical finesse. All of these can be found on major booksellers' websites. Hope that helped some. Kenji's book is delightful. I actually just reread it recently. I really like the amount of information in it, however, I prefer William's translation of the Go Rin No Sho. I feel it captures the essence of his writing more than Kenji's because he attempts to translate both the spirit and intention of the book, but it ends up in an awkward middle for me. Kenji 's notes are irrevocably helpful though. However, both the Book of Five Rings and The Life Giving Sword are books that one has a hard time really understanding without practice, and likely instruction. I recommend The Unfettered Mind if you are going to get these books though. Takuan Soho was a sort of mentor of Munenori and (beleived by a lot of people) Musashi. He was also a friend to a LOT of powerful people and had many connections. You will see his influence on the works of others, especially works done by Yagyu. I only wish Sekishusai or Hyogonosuke wrote books. Supposedly Sekishusai preferred Hyogo and wasn't exactly estactic about Munenori tutoring the shogun. Heck, I'd give half of my lifespan to hear some wise words from Kamiizumi.
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Post by Derzis on Feb 11, 2016 0:40:11 GMT
Again, I realized that and changed my reply to mention shihan, renshi, hanshi, and kyoshi which are given at certain dan grading in the modern system that even koryu sometimes use. Asking for their dan rank should be sufficient. Just to be safe I edited my post further and just simplified. At 4th dan you can teach iai, but with a Sensei who's supervising, you can start a 'study group' before 4th dan. This is happening quite rarely, and only if the student has Sensei's support and he is receiving the approval from the federation for this. At the end, for someone who's interested in 'credits' for a dojo, look above the sensei - check the lineage and with whom the seminars are done. The ranks you named, are accorded from 7dan up. In a country like Canada, there are just 3 (three) 7dan. To ask for your sensei to be kyoshi or renshi or hanshi is narrowing your options tremendously. The person who opened the topic just to check for the dojos that are having seminars with high-rank sensei on annual bases, and he will be fine.
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Post by jammer on Feb 11, 2016 20:07:33 GMT
Again, I realized that and changed my reply to mention shihan, renshi, hanshi, and kyoshi which are given at certain dan grading in the modern system that even koryu sometimes use. Asking for their dan rank should be sufficient. Just to be safe I edited my post further and just simplified. At 4th dan you can teach iai, but with a Sensei who's supervising, you can start a 'study group' before 4th dan. This is happening quite rarely, and only if the student has Sensei's support and he is receiving the approval from the federation for this. At the end, for someone who's interested in 'credits' for a dojo, look above the sensei - check the lineage and with whom the seminars are done. The ranks you named, are accorded from 7dan up. In a country like Canada, there are just 3 (three) 7dan. To ask for your sensei to be kyoshi or renshi or hanshi is narrowing your options tremendously. The person who opened the topic just to check for the dojos that are having seminars with high-rank sensei on annual bases, and he will be fine. This is good advice, imo the study group type model has worked quite well, and it can be surprising (when we get to 4th-5th Dan ZNKR etc and beyond) the experience contained in that person outside the ranking system. Here in the UK it is quite likely, as in maybe 30%, that 4th-5th dans have trained in niten ichi ryu, or have been exposed to it, or other kenjutsh styles for numerous years, jo and bo vs odachi, but neglect to mention it, as their years pass it is amalgamated into their style. Certainly they are exposed to it and most of the iai dojos have "study groups" available to thrm in these styles.
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Post by jammer on Feb 11, 2016 20:26:51 GMT
Sorry to be so laborious, in my labouring of the point.
We also have ona ha ito ryu, MJER, and a host of historical, and very welcome and culturally significant, revival of European swordsmanship and weapons being painstakingly recreated by matt easton and his study groups, plus many other people that will probably get no credit* This is in association with experts at our weapons museums, such as the Leeds armoury, Wallace collection and so on.
This is in the UK, BTW ☺.
* I say "no credit* as in a statement of fact, not at all judgjng the allocation of credit, the HEMA community is perfectly capable of allocating credit where it sees fit. They're "grown ups" ☺
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Post by adversary on Nov 26, 2016 11:33:36 GMT
Again, I realized that and changed my reply to mention shihan, renshi, hanshi, and kyoshi which are given at certain dan grading in the modern system that even koryu sometimes use. Asking for their dan rank should be sufficient. Just to be safe I edited my post further and just simplified. At 4th dan you can teach iai, but with a Sensei who's supervising, you can start a 'study group' before 4th dan. This is happening quite rarely, and only if the student has Sensei's support and he is receiving the approval from the federation for this. At the end, for someone who's interested in 'credits' for a dojo, look above the sensei - check the lineage and with whom the seminars are done. The ranks you named, are accorded from 7dan up. In a country like Canada, there are just 3 (three) 7dan. To ask for your sensei to be kyoshi or renshi or hanshi is narrowing your options tremendously. The person who opened the topic just to check for the dojos that are having seminars with high-rank sensei on annual bases, and he will be fine. Let me just drag this ancient thread up from the depths here. Was reading through it (instead of asking the same questions to OP did) and i saw this (bolded above). I'll hopefully be looking for a serious school in the next couple years, and i'm pretty reverent of tradition and authenticity... and well... quality. When i do source out a Kenjutsu school to join, i'd like the best possible. I want to be as far from 'McDojo' as i can get. I'm a pretty quick learner and well disciplined, so i'm not worried about a hard style. Questions: 1, are any of these three high-ranking sensei's in Vancouver? or near it? I'm within an hours drive myself. 2, is it right to assume that a higher ranking sensei would make a better teacher/better school to join? Read: is it worth seeking one out, rather than just finding a more convenient 'good' sensei? Personally, i'll ALWAYS pay or or suffer more for a better product. Always.
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