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Post by Bryan Heff on Aug 26, 2015 12:20:50 GMT
So I am interested in people's opinions on this in regards to medieval sword blade edges and sharpness from the maker. How sharp should they be? What should our expectations be from the manufacturer?
Of course there are going to be a million factors (price point, blade typology, you are a backyard cutter) that will factor in to your thoughts.
Should we have the expectation that all swords should be able to cut water bottles right out of the box? How about pool noodles? Rolled up wet newspaper rolls? Tatami mats? Layered linen?
What are your thoughts and expectations?
Mine are fairly simple - A "good" edge, a clean edge that could be very sharp, but could also be kinda sharp. Either is fine for me personally. The kinda sharp can always be honed to a higher level if I choose. If the edge looks like a drunk monkey put it on...well that's not too good obviously.
Disclaimer - I am not much of a backyard cutter, although I have cut a few water bottles in the past using lower end swords. So super sharp is not all that important to me. A clean edge the is well blended is more important than a super sharp edge, for me.
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Post by MOK on Aug 26, 2015 13:17:00 GMT
My preference is pretty simple: the product should be as advertised.  Beyond that, everything else depends on too many wildly varying variables for there to be any meaningful generic answer overall, IMO. |
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 26, 2015 13:52:19 GMT
Like you said it will depend on what you are going to do with it. A good working edge (almost shave cut paper well) will take more abuse but most people want razor sharp edges. Like it or not these thin edges will dull fast then the maker gets the blame. I can put a shaving edge on a axe but don't think it is the best edge for them.
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 26, 2015 14:37:55 GMT
An edge that accomplishes its purported purpose without sacrificing longevity. I'm not a big fan of edges that require superb edge alignment, because I don't think that was a big requirement for combat during the time swords were used. There are some types of swords, however, designed to be incredibly sharp.
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ChrisA
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Post by ChrisA on Aug 26, 2015 15:20:15 GMT
I do some cutting. Not too much these days. I like my edges to be as sharp as possible when I open the box. Circumstances that dictate "possible" include cost, being the foremost, and type. Swords are meant to be sharp, dammit! |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 26, 2015 15:52:48 GMT
My opinion is a blade should be as sharp as the user desires. Some will opt for a more delicate sharper edge and will be willing to put in the work to maintain it and likes to show off by slicing paper or cutting a bottle an doesn’t mind frequent sharpening, then that’s the edge for them. Others will prefer a more robust edge for harder targets and/or requires less maintenance. My personal opinion is that the first is a show blade and the later is a working blade and the terms apply to blades in general, not just swords.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 26, 2015 16:20:50 GMT
A good working edge can slice bottles well. I prefer a working edge. If you roll the edge on a small area of a super sharp blade it's a semprini to resharp the whole sword to make sure you do have a dip in the blade's edge.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Aug 26, 2015 16:48:37 GMT
This is an interesting question. For me, I'd have to say: it varies. Sharpness is as much a question of polish as it is of geometry. An edge of the same geometry can be either quite dull or very sharp, all a matter of polish. Obviously the geometry of the edge plays a big role as well, thinner will cut more aggressively thicker will be more robust. Unless the customer otherwise specifies (which often is the case as I of course ask him what he intends to do with the sword), I have my swords' edges not quite shaving sharp. That means I will shape the edge the way I think is best (and that depends on a large variety of factors) but I might not give it that last stropping with the leather belt. Such an edge will cut paper very easily and deal with plastic bottles, newspaper rolls and tatami without difficulty but it will not be quite as dangerous to handle. A truly shaving sharp edge will bite right through a polishing cloth or leather gloves if you make the smallest mistake during handling/maintenance and let's face it, most people do a lot more handling/touching with their swords than they do cutting where they need every last bit of sharpness (in my experience only needed for cloth/linen). An edge that is properly shaped and easily cuts paper is quickly brought up to shaving sharpness if so desired so that's always an option.
On knives, especially kitchen knives, it's a different matter. Those generally get a shaving sharp edge unless there is a good reason not to do that.
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Post by Bryan Heff on Aug 26, 2015 17:00:15 GMT
A lot of people have mentioned "the swords purpose"...and that, I think, is the key here. Since the true purpose of medieval swords has been retired (to kill people with)...the edge question becomes murky, especially from the standpoint of the maker. Now a custom maker (like Chenness and Driggers) will ask and hone the edge to the customers specs, as any good custom artist probably should. Its the larger makers not doing one off pieces that really have no idea what the plan usage for the sword will be. Will it be added to a collection, hung on a wall or is its intended purpose to cut pool noodles? Who knows. So IMO if they do the proper type of edge, geometry wise and in regards to edge shape and angle...the final acute sharpness is really a personal thing so MANY swords are going to need to be honed to wicked sharp, if pool noodles and water jugs must die without so much as a wimper.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Aug 26, 2015 17:02:28 GMT
The same sharpness that will get it to accomplish what it was designed to do historically, which is actually quite sharp. Like hair shaving sharp.
If a sword is advertised as sharp it is completely ridiculous that one would have to do after-market sharpening to get it to a good place.
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Post by Bryan Heff on Aug 26, 2015 18:04:08 GMT
The same sharpness that will get it to accomplish what it was designed to do historically, which is actually quite sharp. Like hair shaving sharp. If a sword is advertised as sharp it is completely ridiculous that one would have to do after-market sharpening to get it to a good place.
Yeah, that is why I asked the question...seems to be a good bit of variance on what is acceptable in terms of a sharp edge.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Aug 26, 2015 20:55:54 GMT
A lot of people like to test what is 'sharp enough' against lots of mediums designed to simulate (or actually are) flesh. However what people forget is that killing naked people makes up a very small percentage of sword use. And to get through textiles the sword needs to be what most people would describe as extremely sharp. |
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Post by hoplos on Aug 26, 2015 22:34:46 GMT
This is a good thread. I have wondered the same thing lately, and I was excited to see the title at the top of the page. I have seen guides to sword sharpness where "very sharp" is still shy of cutting paper, which according to the same guide is an unrealistic/too fragile of an edge for any sword. I am not disputing these standards, but it does seem like there would be applications for a finer edged blade, given the variety of uses and periods of history swords appear in.
I understand that an un-sharpened blade can rend flesh and bone, and that fine edges can require higher maintenance and run a higher risk of damage, but what about, for example, longswords intended for civilian use? Like SeanF mentioned, cutting through textiles and performing draw cuts seems like it would demand a much finer edge than a durable appleseed type edge on a blade intended to encounter maille and resilient enough to survive strikes on plate.
I do know that I would like a blade that has a little bit finer of an edge than I have seen from KOA (not knocking their service at all, they are clear about what to expect of their edges and do a good job of it, and quickly). From what I hear, Albion's NG edges are what I'm looking for. If I do buy another blade that comes dull from the manufacturer, I will see about having it worked on by one of the custom sharpeners that are on this board. Or learn how to sharpen my own blades.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Aug 26, 2015 22:39:24 GMT
A fine edge and an extremely sharp edge are two different things. A fine edge is more fragile. A properly sharpened edge with appropriate geometry isn't any more fragile than a duller edge. Yes it will wear down quicker, but when it wears down it just becomes what the duller edge was to begin with.
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Post by MOK on Aug 27, 2015 0:51:23 GMT
A fine edge and an extremely sharp edge are two different things. A fine edge is more fragile. A properly sharpened edge with appropriate geometry isn't any more fragile than a duller edge. Yes it will wear down quicker, but when it wears down it just becomes what the duller edge was to begin with. Indeed! As an example, although I own many modern knives and daggers with quite thin and acute edges, one of my absolute sharpest blades (and one of my favorite weapons) is actually one lovely broadsax by Jürgen Graßler, AKA Schorch der Schmied, based on an early 7th Century grave find from Altheim. It's 45mm wide, 8mm thick and has a wedge-shaped cross-section with slightly convex bevels. It slices paper neatly and effortlessly, pops the hair off my arm almost as easily as an actual razor, and all that... but at the same time the nice and meaty geometry still makes it quite the durable little shield-basher that doesn't at all mind chopping into wood or bone and, interestingly, a somewhat poor bottle-cutter (it bites in no problem, but since bottles don't part and give way like flesh would they tend to get pushed away before the thick blade can bite all the way through). In other words, the cross-section of the blade in general and the edge in particular is very much like a felling axe - but a literally razor-sharp one! |
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 27, 2015 7:02:42 GMT
Sharp enough to shave the hairs off a fly's balls
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Post by Bryan Heff on Aug 27, 2015 11:39:55 GMT
Sharp enough to shave the hairs off a fly's balls Now that seems excessive.... |
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Aug 27, 2015 20:01:29 GMT
I ended up sharpening all the swords I bought for myself. Some of them claim to be sharp and came dull actually, with light reflection on the edge line. Some were too meaty in the angle.
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Post by svante on Aug 28, 2015 6:53:31 GMT
A lot of people are yet to be educated in grits and edge angles. Edge sharpness is a result of edge angle, polish and shape (V,convex, hollow). Wouldn't it be nice if people described sharpness as: "I have a 25 degree's total edge angle, polished to 1200 grit and stropped with red compound, the edge shape is a convex." NOW THAT'S SOMETHING EVERYBODY CAN UNDERSTAND AND PICTURE. "Sharp" "Very Sharp" "Scary Sharp" "Stoooopid Sharp" "Medieval Sharp"(  ) what does that even mean guys?  |
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Aug 28, 2015 7:16:41 GMT
Agree, Svante.
I usually end up making my edges to 20 to 30 degree, depending on original geometry. Always try to go for 20 degree but it if wasn't that type of geometry, will settle for 30 degree. Finished with 8000 grit polished and stropped with cardboard.
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) what does that even mean guys? 
