Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 30, 2015 20:02:04 GMT
This one came in not long ago. After unpacking, the first impression when handling it, was that is heavy compaired to the others in my stash, feeling smooth, where the others seem to feel kinda dry and feeling very solid, where the others can feel flimsy. It has a quite long blade for a weapon of this type, 82 cm / 32.3", too. The blue and gild is at 90% + and the blue ends in a trellis pattern, the first I have seen on a European small sword. This is all very nice but nothing out of the ordinary. A closer look will show this is not a run of the mill sword at all. Before I go into that, I would like to share some thoughts I have about the people using this kind of weapon, symbolic or not. First, these are people born to function in a hierarchy, where everything and everybody has its place. They are conformists. Secondly: These are control freaks. They rule over their place in the hierarchy with a more or less iron fist. Thirdly: Everything is done with a purpose. Nothing is left to chance. Fourthly: Appearance is everything and the sword you carry at functions tells about your place in the order of things, what you are and who you are. The guard plate tells all. It is a Badge, just as clear to read as a tattoe on your forehead. Okay, you say, our seats of goverment are still full of these creeps. So what? Well, here I have a small sword that maybe tells a story that is way out of line with the usual. It could be that I ate to many Cheetos and that I am seeing things, but bear with me if you so please. Lets have a look at that badge first. It looks like kind of a miniature world doesn't it? It has depth. Above is the All Seeing Eye amidst a lot of rays. Is it the sun or God? Or the State? Under it is the symbol of Louis Philippe, the French rooster, standing on a bundle of stout sticks or Fasces. These are a symbol of punishment by law. Normally there would be two axes sticking out on top. Here it is a hand pointing at something that is outside of the guard. At the left, behind the rooster, are two books looking like a Charter. What I have seen of depictions of the French Charter, they allways show one book, one Charter. Other questions are: What Charter, who's law? The Constitution? The Ten Commandments? Why two? I almost said: the rest is filled in with laurel and oak branches, to tighten the scene up. But laurels were for the winners as are the oak leaves. Everything on here has a purpose, nothing is left to chance, remember? It is all about place and control thereoff. Order. So, what is this guy doing up there. Clearly he or it is looking down on the scene on the guard, rather sardonically I might add. Notice how the guillon block is specially made to accomodate this head. Non of my stash have a block like this. None in l'Hoste have a block like this either or I missed it. It is a very well done, real sculpture in miniature, of a Fauns head. At least that was the way the Romans and the Greeks liked to call it. It's pastime was drinking wine, playing the flute and fu#king a lot, with, or preferably, without permission. The Masters of the Christian Church did not like that at all. Who needs a boozing whoring population? Money must be made. There must be Order. There must be Control. Well, they did all of the above and more themselves of course, but forbade having fun for the rest of the population. So, the not really harmful Faun got degraded to being the Devil. Though the people carrying these swords had Greek and Latin and a good understanding of the Classics, the Church still was a power to be reckoned with in those days. So, why would a control freak, steeped in hierarchy, probably with an eye on Politics of State, where the help from like minded entities in the Church would come in handy, risk anything with a depiction of bloody devil or Faun on his badge of honour? And why is the devil or Faun placed above or over the rule of law, above the All Seeing Eye, or above the State, above the World? I doubt this is a Masonic sword. There are no symbols of any kind from that cult incorporated here. So, what is this? What is going on? What is the purpose of that Eagle guillon? Very well done indeed, like the Faun, but I cannot shake off the impression it could be a vulture too. Cheers.
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Post by Aurélien on May 30, 2015 20:15:26 GMT
I have a lot to say about the symbolism of that excellent sword. (The Horned face is the Green Man, NOT the devil, for example. The Rooster is more than a monarch symbol, and so on...) I'll try to write a detailed post tomorrow. Time for me to go to bed, my day has too been long. Congrats for that uncommon acquisition.
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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on May 30, 2015 20:44:29 GMT
I'm interested in Aurelien's thoughts, as i too first thought green man (Cernunnos), or even possibly baphomet. This is indeed a neat blade for sure, and would provide plenty of entertainment to inspect first hand. The layout is intriguing for sure, i just wish i had more time to gawk at these pics. Im gonna have to spend some time tonight.
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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on May 30, 2015 20:49:14 GMT
im thinking the quillion is a pheonix.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 19:57:12 GMT
A Simon Helvig sword (simon helvig et filles) SHF All of these Masonic iconography. The Ten Commandments were on two tablets. The horned guy is Baphomet. www.phoenixmasonry.org/Spot on for the Louis Philippe association and time line. A very nice fraternal sword, with the Masons quite active in the military. There were instances of kings presenting swords such as this for the order. Sweden, another example. It is not uncommon to see old military sword forms associated with the Masons. Give me some time and I'll put up a couple of English yeomanry cavalry swords, a Swedish smallsword and American m1832 artillery glaives, early American militia swords (all pre ACW), etc. It really is a niche of its own, leading to later 19th century fraternal swords. It is a study in and of itself.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 20:04:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 20:06:37 GMT
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 31, 2015 22:22:29 GMT
I would expect the square and compass to be incorporated somewhere on the badge, if this a Masonic sword. As far as I know those are the oldest symbols of the Cathedral builders. That is why I said I see no Masonic symbols. What you call Baphomet was in Classical times Zeus - Ammon, also depicted as Satir or Faun in the Bachus cult, sanctioned and incorporated and controled by the Church as Carnaval. Whatever the Royal backing of that deplorable cult, this sword, nor the person wearing it, would be welcome at official functions of state. So what I see now is an attempt to give the cult some legitimacy through the use of accepted symbols of officialdom, cq.the small sword worn by officials of state and army. At the time of Louis Philippe the Jesuits were back as a strong force in backroom politics ( is there anything else?) and as a consequence tolerance for the cult was wearing very thin, something akin to being a confessed Stalinist under McCarty and rightly so I may add. Around 1870 the Jesuits were expelled, again,from Germany and France too. Pity they let the Masons stay. They have very much the same goals, none of which bode very well for us, the little people. The ritual, the dress, the symbols are just so much smoke and mirrors.The name of the game is power. As a form of art I like this sword, as an artefact of a sociopathic cult I do not like it at all, up to the point that I may not tolerate it in my home. Maybe I give it to a psyghiatrist friend of mine. He would love to rip this faux religion to shreds.
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Post by Dave Kelly on May 31, 2015 22:54:35 GMT
Jumpin Jehosaphat, I didn't know you were so amicably disposed to secret fraternal orgaizations. And to place so much faith in the world order ambitions of same. ( Shame, here I was gonna offer to let you join my own order, Phi, Omega Lipschitz and partake of the sacredotal Reeses Kup, but I guess that's a non-starter, Eh? )
Bye the Bye if your so intent on cast out that terrible totem of evil I'll pay you the postage and you can fling it over this'a way. :)
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 22:59:21 GMT
Whatever. I guess it's time for me to exit SBG once more.
Read those links and comprehend.
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Post by chrisperoni on Jun 1, 2015 3:43:18 GMT
Ulahn's not mad at you edelweiss - he just doesn't like freemason stuff is all. At least that's how it seems to me.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 1, 2015 4:42:58 GMT
edelweiss, I did not mean to offend you at all. Please accept my apologies if I did so, it was not my intention. I respect you and appriciate the knowledge you let us partake in and the seemingly effortless way you come up with answers so fast I might add. I let my feelings come in the way, instead of exploring this interesting topic in a cool scientific state of mind. Let's shake hands.
To say I do not like this organisation, or any organistion of its kind for that matter, is the understatement of the year, but therefore not untrue. Now, if one would take that ,, not like '' and multiply this feeling of slight discomfort with the energy output from an out of control nuclear reactor, that would be nearer to the truth. At least that was how it was. I must be getting old and boring.
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Post by William Swiger on Jun 1, 2015 5:11:00 GMT
Very interesting sword indeed.
I agree if you don't like the symbolism on the sword, just pass it along. There are people who also don't like military swords from certain countries and eras because of what they represented during their use.
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Post by Croccifixio on Jun 1, 2015 6:05:50 GMT
This was interesting apart from the casual opinions that are probably a bit beyond what sword reviews should be about :P Of course, I'm not referring to historical facts and symbolic analysis.
Anyway, maybe it was just the tone.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 11:15:50 GMT
Whatever. I guess it's time for me to exit SBG once more. Read those links and comprehend. Let me expand a bit. I am simply a bit too exasperated (intensely irritated) to further explain how courageous men have supported kings and countries throughout history. That many did belong to one order or another should come as no large surprise and nor should I be astonished that some just don't get the connections when offered background information to help them winnow wheat from chaf. Right or wrong, those histories deserve understanding. Just as swords throughout history do. I spend time on several boards and there are often examples of swords and information here that is worthwhile to me. I had ventured to offer something in return. www.phoenixmasonry.org/roman_catholic_freemason.htmAlso extracted from a link I posted above "Many of the army were freemasons. Bernadotte, who lead the troops expelled from Grenoble, and later was a general for Napoleon and then King of Sweden, was a freemason. The cautious response of the army to the outbreak of rebellion in Britany has been ascribed to the number of officers who were freemasons." From another discussion on SFI Interesting Specimen. "Gustavus III issued a number of these swords (or very similar) as swords of honour after the war between Russia and Finland (1788-1790). It is rumoured that the masons assisted Gustavus mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag (parliament)." The only photo I have. One can chose to cast a blind eye to understanding and learning about these swords, or embrace history wholly. I choose the latter. It's funny, one of my grandfather's last communications was advice to avoid cults. I am as certain now that he was referring to Jim Jones, Charlie Manson and similar. Not that he was referring to fraternities. www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=30809547At any rate the French were particularly fond of honorariums and your sword a relatively important one. Most certainly proudly worn by its owner. Scottish Rite. What would be more appropriate for an affiliated yeomanry officer to field?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 13:01:12 GMT
As an aside, an anecdote of my youth. I was drawn and quartered in class at a boarding school by my headmaster (Boynton). In a book review regarding the history of the battle for Breed's Hill, I somewhat glorified the British plight of fighting uphill in heavy uniforms and carrying such weight on such a hot day. My headmaster was furious at me for that empathy and went on at some length to the whole body of students that American patriotism was everything. Now, this man, Aurthur Boynton, was a very lettered person. Spoke many languages (we had morning prayers in a rotation of four of them). Musician, WWII naval commander, boxer; etc. I am assured in some afterlife we will be able to chuckle a bit together about that review when I mention his ancestral family's British military history. He had also previously ripped apart a review I had done regarding a Horatio Hornblower novel for not being concise enough and less essayed. Sometimes one just can't win over an audience in presentation.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 2, 2015 8:39:25 GMT
I did some more digging in l'Hoste. Something about the pommel nagged me. It turns out to be Second Empire. See pages 362-366. It is sometimes hard to see in the pictures where a semi oval turns into an oval and so into a different type and so a marker of a different time frame. One of the clues here is the chain surrounding the button in the centre. It may be interpreted as the ,,chain of dynasty''. So, the poultry on the guard has no connection to Louis Philippe at all, but could be interpreted, I guess, as the Gallic rooster sec. As the ruler at that time is Napoleon III, one could conclude that the right interpretation could be ,, Gallia ressurrected '', or ,, Napoleon (the dynasty) ressurrected''. In the eyes of many, certainly at that time,but even now, Glorius Gallia equals Napoleon I, never mind the devastation, misery and havoc the little punk caused, since most of that happened in far away places anyway. In more modern parlance: ,,Good times are here again'', or the more omnius: ,,We're baaaack''! Turning to the guard, one could see the All Seeing Eye as God, as in ,,God bless America''. Here that would translate as ,,God bless Glorius Gallia'', or ,, God bless the Dynasty''. Gallia stands on the rule of law and is backed up by the Ten Commandments, never mind that the first command was not seen as a command per se, but more as sort of a guideline, as it is still. The hand sticking out of the Fasces is not pointing, like I thought to see before, but is making a giving gesture. The rule of law gives. What does it give? Stability and protection. Here I hear Monty Pyton: ,,Pull the other one!''. This whole towering edifice of hypocrisy stands on the oak leaves of honour and the laurels of achievement. So, in my view, the only vestige of what could be interpreted as a Masonic symbol left, is that sardonic satir head, aka Zeus - Ammon, on the guilon block. One could see this as Masonic per se, the easy way, but what about another interpretation: ,, I look down on the works of man. It will all turn to dust. All this posturing, all the propaganda, the lies,the hypocrisy, leads to nill, nada, is in vain? So, instead of hanging the Masonic label on the sword, the instand one sees symbols much older than Masonry, but incorporated and distorted by Masonic lore and propaganda, there is maybe room for another interpretation. More down to earth. Though certainly not the sword of a state official, it may have been the property of someone from the Academie Francaise instead, a philosopher maybe or a writer, who full well knew that what he saw around him and all those pretty, hollow symbols on his guard, was just so much balony,circus, a show.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 17:40:54 GMT
You will see what you want to see and overlook what has been offered. It seems odd to me to have used a blade (indeed the entire sword) of the source during the second or third empire. Sure, you can rationalize is as an academic sword. Perhaps even as early as Helvig's day. I have a stepping out smallsword from the early 19th century and an identical guard from the end of the 19th century. Castings that persisted for a century (and more). At any rate, one might go back and start with Helvig swords and his production.
Since you bring up America and the all seeing eye, consider the origin of the US Great Seal, a fellow named Barton, and the phoenix rising from ashes finalized as a bald eagle (not until the 19th century). The French rooster and fasces transmuted to an eagle and rolling thunderbolts on French guards. More information and history you are welcome to ignore.
I find your outlook prejudicial but have no problem agreeing to disagree. Ignorance, bigotry and a shuttered mind often writes history to suit one's understanding. I have no real need to further convince one to look beyond the prejudice, hence my brief reply of "whatever" and preferring to leave such to their own devices.
I am not a mason and I share not great love for their society. Grandfather was a noted psychologist and a mason. Woven into history, it behooves me to read about their development. Especially so when regarding swords and their iconography.
Enjoy
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 2, 2015 19:04:47 GMT
Well, If you know better than Mr. l'Hoste, be my guest and correct him by writing a better book on the subject. I do not overlook what has been offered at all. I can say the same of you. You conviniently brush over any reparte, using words like bigotry, ignorance and shuttered mind. Those are not the words of a gentleman and scholar, but come very close to the tactics used by Mr. Alinsky. ,, If you cannot win the discussion with arguments, try to offend the other side and in doing so undermine his stature and positive perception of him by the public''. And another thing. I apologised for a percieved affront, that did not take place, only in your mind. Unlike a gentleman, you have chosen to ignore this apology like this is something of a right you have as a person of such an extalted stature. And so you keep on going with a tone not becoming of discourse here on SBG. Sharing of information is what this site is all about, in a friendly fashion that is, not handing down from up high eternal wisdom chisseled in stone to the boors. Your continued arrogance and affronts, not only to me, but as expressed in you writing, to all members of SBG, would in better times be enough to send you my secondants for a duel. Have you ever considered that you might be wrong? I bet not. It would shock the very fundaments of you ego. Reading your last post, you posses the knowledge of the Gods, with you the sole conduit of their wisdom. You only agree to disagree. Yes of course you do. It saves you the embarresment to have to confess you might be way off the mark. To yourself. And I have this eery feeling I am not the first to see this. Ever considered that bigotry, shuttered mind and ignorance might be said of you? No true scholar you. So, I hereby take back my apology and tell you I do not wish to see any posts of yours in my threads. If you would continue to do so, your posts will be ignored and I will ask a moderator to delete them. It is the tone that sets the music and in your case the music turned to noise quite quick. I bid you good day sir.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jun 2, 2015 19:12:40 GMT
Conversation and disagreement are fine, so long as it stays respectful. No more mentioning of "cults" or insinuations of bigotry. Keep the thread on track.
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