|
Post by william m on Apr 15, 2015 7:30:52 GMT
I remember when I did some forging with Owen Bush, he showed us how tempering worked. We heated and wrongly tempered a metal file. The file was just tapped on an anvil and it shattered like glass. The grain was identical to your sword.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 7:36:07 GMT
Like it or not swords break, no matter what brand. Yep, they're just steel tools, and that's what can happen to steel tools, whether it's a garden fork or a medieval sword!
|
|
|
Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Apr 15, 2015 8:23:22 GMT
Like it or not swords break, no matter what brand. Yep, they're just steel tools, and that's what can happen to steel tools, whether it's a garden fork or a medieval sword! That's true but there are things a sword should be able to handle without breaking and accidentally hitting a wooden stand absolutely is one of these things.
|
|
|
Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Apr 15, 2015 8:25:56 GMT
I remember when I did some forging with Owen Bush, he showed us how tempering worked. We heated and wrongly tempered a metal file. The file was just tapped on an anvil and it shattered like glass. The grain was identical to your sword. If the grain was enlarged the way it is here, all the tempering in the world wouldn't have made a difference... tempering doesn't change grain size, really. That must be fine out of quench or you're in trouble. I suspect in your case it was just a demonstration of how glass-hard and fragile a blade can be out of the quench without tempering.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 8:58:37 GMT
I somehow missed the bit where the sword hit the edge of the table! Thought it broke on a bad cut... If the grain is like that through a lot of the blade, there would be no point trying to regrind the parts into anything else!
|
|
|
Post by william m on Apr 15, 2015 9:45:02 GMT
I remember when I did some forging with Owen Bush, he showed us how tempering worked. We heated and wrongly tempered a metal file. The file was just tapped on an anvil and it shattered like glass. The grain was identical to your sword. If the grain was enlarged the way it is here, all the tempering in the world wouldn't have made a difference... tempering doesn't change grain size, really. That must be fine out of quench or you're in trouble. I suspect in your case it was just a demonstration of how glass-hard and fragile a blade can be out of the quench without tempering. I don't think so, I am pretty sure that I remember that the tempering we did on file did have a big affect on the grain size, which was the whole point of the demonstration. Any experienced smiths here, which can confirm either way?
|
|
|
Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Apr 15, 2015 10:17:11 GMT
Tempering has no effect on grain size, tempering draws the hardest back where the steel won't break as easy. Steel will shatter very easily straight out of the quench.
Ever said the grain size wasn't to big, but I will stand by what I said. I haven't had a sword I've made break yet. But the odds are I will have. Did have one bend and I flex test before I ship.
|
|
|
Post by william m on Apr 15, 2015 10:22:47 GMT
Hmmm, well there we go then. :)
|
|
|
Post by Svadilfari on Apr 15, 2015 11:06:50 GMT
Not sure if it's my tired old eyes, or artefact of the picture, but it looks like there's some slight area's of discolouration in the picture of the break. Could have been some cracks developing in there for a while. How old was it ? Hope you can find the broken tip. As folks have said, you might still be able to create some form of usable weapon(s) out of the remains.
|
|
|
Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Apr 15, 2015 12:21:43 GMT
I wouldn't want to make another weapon with a blade that failed because it will fail again. That would be like reusing the same wood you used to make a bow that broke the first time you drew it. If it failed once it will fail again. I think every blade should at least be flex tested like L Driggers does but in this mass production world that's not being done. We have become the manufactures testers.They probably figure that most of the swords they sell will just hang on walls or at the most be used to cut air. Back in time how many swordsmith would have lived to a ripe old age if their swords kept failing their customers.
|
|
|
Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Apr 15, 2015 12:50:32 GMT
Cobra525, did you only use this sword to cut small plastic bottles or did you use it on hard targets as well? If you only used the sword on soft targets then it's unacceptable for a quality sword to break the first time you hit a wooden stand or wooden table. Unless you're using a wall hanger, all quality steel blades should be able to take a little abuse before a catastrophic failure.
|
|
|
Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Apr 15, 2015 13:30:58 GMT
Ever said the grain size wasn't to big, but I will stand by what I said. I haven't had a sword I've made break yet. But the odds are I will have. Did have one bend and I flex test before I ship. Oh, absolutely. At some point it's got to happen... Murphy's law and all that...
|
|
|
Post by aussie-rabbit on Apr 15, 2015 13:51:13 GMT
If the grain was enlarged the way it is here, all the tempering in the world wouldn't have made a difference... tempering doesn't change grain size, really. That must be fine out of quench or you're in trouble. I suspect in your case it was just a demonstration of how glass-hard and fragile a blade can be out of the quench without tempering. I don't think so, I am pretty sure that I remember that the tempering we did on file did have a big affect on the grain size, which was the whole point of the demonstration. Any experienced smiths here, which can confirm either way? For the technically minded - nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/27/jresv27n2p159_A1b.pdf
|
|
ShooterMike
VIP Reviewer
Senior Forumite
I like swords, and my snowman did too!
Posts: 9,094
|
Post by ShooterMike on Apr 15, 2015 14:35:37 GMT
Reminds me of ShooterMike's William Marshall. Can't remember the specifics to that break, but he re-ground the "bottom" to have a new tip and compared to to a "European Oniyuri" but I can't remember whether he ever got around to turning the tip into the matching dagger he'd alluded to planning... Of course, you mention not being able to find the rest. That's worrying. Hope you find it before it finds you, or something else that wasn't looking for it. Yep, that looks exactly like my William Marshall that broke. Sorry to see it happen again. Mine broke on a good water bottle cut. So my opinion is, if it's gonna break it's gonna break. Mine had an obvious crack already started in the edge, and the grain in the cross section looked like that. Consensus then was bed steel structure at that point.
It happens. I even had an ATrim Type X that broke that way in the hilt. There was an obvious void near the back of the tang, in the thinned portion for threading. Lust looked like an air bubble. Bottom line: steel is made by man and it can have internal flaws that you just can't see from the outside. A good manufacturer will stand behind it as defective, and replace it.
|
|
|
Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Apr 15, 2015 16:29:06 GMT
Back in the day alot of swords failed, some of them broke some of them shattered, some bent and twisted. The longer the sword the more there is a chance of it breaking. Nothing will last for ever if you use it. It's going to take stress and wear out some way.
Most knights used war hammer, maces, or some other type of impact weapon as their main weapon.
|
|
|
Post by william m on Apr 15, 2015 17:16:16 GMT
I don't think that is true Driggers. By the time we had knights, steel was of a decent quality and nothing like the softer swords you had around in the 800's.
|
|
|
Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Apr 15, 2015 17:50:11 GMT
Ever said they were soft, the harder the steel the easier it is to break or shatter. Softer steel will bent before it breaks. Even a hard will steel bent or twist it just depends on how and what it hits. I've seen plenty of spring steel car leaf springs bent.
|
|
Luka
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,848
|
Post by Luka on Apr 15, 2015 17:51:07 GMT
Steel might be decent, but heat treating and forging leaves a lot of room for human mistakes. There was always cheaper and more expensive stuff and cheaper stuff was done either with worse materials or by worse makers... (Unless we talk about swords expensive because of decoration, that's another thing.)
|
|
Luka
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,848
|
Post by Luka on Apr 15, 2015 17:52:08 GMT
And it is definitely true sword was never considered a primary weapon for battle...
|
|
|
Post by brotherbanzai on Apr 15, 2015 18:34:02 GMT
Sorry to hear about your sword. It's certainly possible for even a well made sword to break on a single hit against a hard object, but it isn't very likely. The grain in that blade looks terrible. It should look like extremely fine sand or even powder, that looks more like gravel. I wouldn't suggest making anything else out of the remaining blade unless it's only going to be for display or you're going to redo the heat treatment.
|
|