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Post by jam on Apr 7, 2015 9:01:41 GMT
Hi
I am collecting pairs of edged weapons that were commonly used simultaneously, one of each suite and very gradually. I am specifically interested in civilian/duelling weapons or weapons worn everyday, as per samurai daisho.
I currently have an unmatched daisho of good quality, as it was rare for samurai to have a matched daisho I am happy with this pairing, I have selected what best suits my school of swordsmanship rather than trying to find a wakizashi to match my katana.
The above represents my entire collection of swords, so it is a small collection.
I know nothing about rapier fighting, or whether daggers were normally made to match the rapier. I have no HEMA, or similar, training to fall back on and so cannot just make a decision based on my school or personal fighting style.
I love the pappenheimer style of rapier, with a slightly thicker blade that looks like it may have some cutting potential, and my question is, would choosing a matching dagger be a bit naff and not at all correct from an historic point of view? Or would it have been relatively common to have the same pappenheimer style of dagger to accompany a rapier of the same style?
I am rubbish at searching forums and so apologise in advance if this has been covered before. Please link to the thread if it has.
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Post by Dean on Apr 7, 2015 9:17:37 GMT
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Post by jam on Apr 7, 2015 11:13:56 GMT
Thanks Dean, so from a display point of view it isn't wildly inaccurate to have a visually matching pair then?
I am confused,from a rapier vs rapier fighting POV, how was the parrying dagger used, given the massive difference in lengths between the rapier and the dagger? I thought the rapier was mainly used with a side-on stance, this is confusing me as to what actual use a dagger would be?
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Post by Dean on Apr 7, 2015 18:00:01 GMT
The dagger has several uses.
1. When the dagger is held close to the rapier, the rapier parry's the incoming attack, and then the dagger takes over the parrying duties.(That is the dagger and rapier converge) This allows the rapier to be free from the duty of parrying, earlier, facilitating a quicker repoiste.
2. When held separate, the dagger can close a line of attack, allowing the rapier to be held in a better guard for attack. This rarely works, as the dagger line requires "maintenance”, and is easily circumnavigated by the opposing rapier. Basically an attack with converging weapons “beats” a defence with diverging weapons.
3. When the antagonist is past the point of your rapier (they have stepped with a passing with the left foot), you can still use your dagger to attack them.
Dagger is a carefully balance of not providing an attack option (attacking the dagger hand/arm) and closing a line of attack. Therefore the dagger hilt is designed to provide protection in the system. Various systems preferred certain guards and counter postures to others, and therefore required both the rapier of the system (length and hilt furniture), and the dagger of the system. This provided much dialogue between proponents of said systems. (Read there was much mudslinging)
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 7, 2015 20:46:40 GMT
The dagger belongs with long heavy early rapiers. Think 1.2 to 1.5kg, 45" or more of blade. That's isn't a fast agile sword - that's a sword designed to be longer than the other person's sword.
IMO, 3 above is the key function, stopping the opponent from closing. The sword blade is long enough so that if the opponent comes in close, you can't pull the point back in front of their body. The dagger will discourage them from coming in so close, keeping them at sword-poking distance.
But you can parry with it, too.
Note that when rapiers become lighter and faster, daggers go away. Side-on stance gives you extra reach, but takes a dagger out of play. If you don't need the dagger, the sword works better without it. So the dagger stops being used.
I don't agree with the comments above on matching dagger. To have a matched set, it's the hilt/guard that matters. Appropriate length can be had, matched or not. As for the hilt/guard, it's usually side-ring and quillons. Some variations in whether quillons are straight, up-curved or down-curved or both, but nothing to stop them from working. (Perhaps we read "matching" differently?) Matching dagger and rapier is fashion. Any left-hand dagger will work martially, but it only works as fashion if it matches. Fashion is a non-negligible function of the rapier!
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Post by Dean on Apr 7, 2015 21:16:41 GMT
I meant matched to the system.
For example in Capofero , the dagger has no “side rings” and is a simple curved quillon. If you use a side ring, you cannot parry in the manner described. Even a straight quillon would not provide the required ideal. So the dagger is “matched to the system”. (The rapier is also matched to the system)
As to the weight of the rapier being the demise of the dagger, I do not believe this to be the case. The concept of the duel changed to a more “sport” ideal, that is, of a ”level playing field”. Instead of skill with various weapon combinations and guards, it became increasingly about simple movements (reduction in guards etc); designed to demonstrate “courage” and gentleman behaviour dictated by social mores. See the small sword as the evolution of this concept. The reality is, the dagger was “banned”, (Unacceptable by social convention, and eventually duelling law) hence the cloak became the ”off- hand weapon”.
Fashion is possibly THE most important aspect of the rapier fight. Duels could only be done by what was accepted socially.
The same ideal today. It is unacceptable to beat someone “empty handed”. Yet we tolerate the duel, where if we “obey the rules” it is socially acceptable. IE boxing , wrestling, MMA etc.
Rapier, small sword etc, makes little sense without the social conventions that go with them. |
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Post by Dave Kelly on Apr 8, 2015 7:18:27 GMT
Classical French schools taught students smallsword and daggers up to WWII.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 8:30:50 GMT
Matched pair - these are my ones (Mine are like the silver ones pictured above)!
Hanwei's Solingen Rapier and the Solingen Main Gauche
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Post by jam on Apr 8, 2015 9:38:21 GMT
Thanks guys, interesting chat. Seems that there was a more square on stance with the rapier/dagger pairing. Simliar to nito kenjutsu.
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Post by jam on Apr 8, 2015 9:41:05 GMT
Classical French schools taught students smallsword and daggers up to WWII. Thanks Dave Kelly, nice swords. The second one up bottom right is the style I like. I was going to get a dagger with the perforated guard to match. I see you have a pronged guard dagger with it. Would a dagger like the second down on the right, but perforated pappenheimer style, be a suitable pairing historically? |
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Post by jam on Apr 8, 2015 9:42:35 GMT
Matched pair - these are my ones (Mine are like the silver ones pictured above)!
Hanwei's Solingen Rapier and the Solingen Main Gauche
Nice, it is that type of dagger that I am thinking may have been paired with a Pappenheimer rapier, but I've seen a set I like with a pappenheimer style guard. I'm trying to work out whether that is a bit naff/rubbish. |
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Post by Dave Kelly on Apr 9, 2015 1:35:43 GMT
The Pappenheim you picked is a Windlass product that has been out of production for maybe 4 years. One of our members has been talking to Irongate Swords of Finland, who has gone out on a limb with exclusive purchase contracts with Windlass to reinstate half a dozen old models, about reintroducing the Pap. Problem for US folks is that the nature of the contract and shipping adds a pretty healthy surcharge to the transaction. Anyway, the sowrd occasionally pops up on ebay, where I found this one.
Probably the least expensive Pap currently available is from Armorclass of Edinburgh Scotland. 4-6 month waiting list. Others I can think of will run you 1600.00 for a matched sey with scabbards. ( Vlad Cervenka)
Butterfly or cupped Main Gauche daggers don't exist; impractical to carry. The sail guards, of which I have two, were the next best alternative. Long bladed shorter quilloned daggers seemed most popular in northern europe. MRL has come out with three new Main Gauche daggers in the past year and they are an exceptional buy worthy of complementing any rapier.
The rapier below is a Darkwood Armory competition sport rapier; one of four styled hilts. Very nice work. Not cheap.
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Post by jam on Apr 10, 2015 6:39:52 GMT
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Post by Dave Kelly on Apr 10, 2015 7:37:47 GMT
About the only merit to that stage piece is it's relative expense compared to other options. It is too heavy. Rapier PoBs are close to the guard in order to optimise point control, however with long and sometimes wider blades a heavier hilt is required to maintain leverage for the point. That can get out of hand when you wind up with an uncomfortably tiring hilt that further restricts the range of motion you can bring into play with the sword.
I would advise patience and a willingness to save time or money to get a better version of the rapier you want. ( Advice from a king of compulsive purchases LOL )
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Post by jam on Apr 10, 2015 7:54:07 GMT
Haha! I'm the other way around, I purchase at a snail's pace. I am well outside my comfort zone with rapiers, all I know is that, visually, they evoke something in me and I want to add a pairing to my little collection.
I appreciate the advice, and intend to follow it.
The piece I linked to, as a display piece is it wildly out too? I like the aesthetics of it, but my taste is uninformed.
What sort of weight range is credible for a pappenheimer style rapier?
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Post by Dave Kelly on Apr 10, 2015 8:18:59 GMT
There were no rules requiring standardization of weapons until the end of the 18th Century, so it's a bell curve where the norms for any sword lies. Rapiers sort of have 3 major phases in their development. The earliest were a convergence of cut and thrust and sidesword types that came up with a thrust oriented sword in the 2.5 - 3 lb range. The development of the rapier coincided with a social trend for civilianized middle class carrying of swords. This saw a diversification of weapons catering to pragmatic fighting weapons to ostentatious overbuilds for show. In the last stage rapiers got more practical and streamlined as the age of the complex hilt went away, and the Louis XIV adopted smallsword became the must have social status symbol of the baroque age.
Pappenheim was a general officer of the Holy Roman Empire. Equipments associated to him are military. 2.5 - 2.75 lbs is a good range.
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Post by jam on Apr 10, 2015 8:58:04 GMT
Wonderful information. Thank you for taking the time.
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Post by jam on Apr 20, 2015 8:55:16 GMT
I've been looking at various rapiers, I am building up a taste for what I like visually.
I have another question, how were the rapier and dagger worn simultaneously? Were they worn simultaneously?
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Post by Beaumont82 on Apr 27, 2015 15:19:51 GMT
Classical French schools taught students smallsword and daggers up to WWII. Dave, some info on the sword on the top space of the left rack please? I've got a serious itch for a cut and thrust, and that one is beautiful! |
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Post by Dave Kelly on Apr 27, 2015 21:40:58 GMT
The 4 sets in the left display are all from Arms and Armor. The top one is a broadsword/rapier for the Elector of Saxony's House Guards. This set was retired last year, but Craig Johnson went ahead and did a set for or own SBG member Uhlan. Included an enlarged Main Gauche instead of the pip squeek original. There is a review here somewhere: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/30728 |
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