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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 14:30:18 GMT
Got a reply from SBG -- it says wait."Unfortunately I have to get approval to refund a custom Katana. I have opened a case and should have an answer shortly. " All that means is that you might have to accept the custom made katana you ordered as opposed to getting a refund. I don't know anywhere that gives a refund on a custom ordered item.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Apr 1, 2015 14:34:13 GMT
You're lucky you're even getting a refund. Most custom order places don't issue refunds unless you got something other than what you ordered or the blade has a flaw. Usually, you're just stuck with your order.
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Post by chrisperoni on Apr 1, 2015 14:50:57 GMT
You quoted your own answer. "If something is wrong or if you can't get your order" - those are the terms of a possible refund. And before you say it, it clearly means if something is wrong with the sword, not if it takes longer to be delivered. Just RELAX already.
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Post by Robert in California on Apr 1, 2015 15:34:23 GMT
Um, where to begin.... (1) custom work takes more time...and the SBG swords in question are special order type swords. So extra patience is needed, especially with the Chinese New Year having businesses taking a month or so off and then being backlogged upon return of the workers. (2) if waits are not something one's personality finds tolerable, then only buy off the shelf stuff that is done and ready for shipping. When I have done that, I got the stuff pretty fast. (3) In another hobby, I have been waiting on some custom work for a year now. The custom guy had a divorce, had one of his key pieces of machinery fail, and is now a single dad. So he needs more time. Reasonable. (4) About mid Dec 14, I gave Huawei a custom order. I am still waiting. So what? My experience with Huawei has been that their stuff is above the norm and so worth the wait. (5) OP, try to take the anger out of your language. I have found that gentle words calms and helps. RinC
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Post by Afoo on Apr 1, 2015 16:31:22 GMT
Got a reply from SBG -- it says wait."Unfortunately I have to get approval to refund a custom Katana. I have opened a case and should have an answer shortly. " The previous email said: "Please rest assured that if something is wrong or if we can't provide you with your order we will refund your money." So it sounds like now there is some doubt as to whether the earlier promise was true. And more waiting. Still no refund, still no sword. Tell me again how great SBG is as a company? First, lets not be so harsh to whereismysword - regardless of how reasonable you think they are, I can at least understand their frustration at not having their sword, despite previous indications otherwise. I mean, yes it takes time for a custom piece, but people new to the field may not be familiar with the unpredictable nature of this field, so lets not jump on them for that. Again, people used to buying off the shelf may not be familiar with the specialized return policies either. Personally, I never buy custom stuff, so this wait time thing was a bit of a surprise to me as well. Maybe they should not have expressed their frustration in a way which puts us SBG forum members (ie; innocent bystanders) on the defensive, but two wrongs do not make a right I must say though, with regards to your point about the refund - once a custom sword is made, I do not think its reasonable to issue a refund unless there is a glaring issue with the item itself (ie: a defect or not to specification). A custom order is not exactly something you can restock and resell, especially after all the work which goes into a custom. In that respect I feel like your point is not reasonable. Also, remember that your batch is one out of 30 previously successful batches. As such, there are two possibilities here. A) SBG is a good company and is having a temporary hiccup - remember that not every company will be perfect - even Kult of Athena will mess up stuff from time to time or B) SBG is a horrible company, and that all previous 30 batches were a fluke or somehow covered up, and its only on your order that the truth comes out. My point is that the SBG store has been doing this for a while (rather successfully), and they will continue to do so for some time from what I can see. I would be annoyed if I were in your shoes, but I would advise having a bit of patience and faith in other people. I don't say this because I support the SBG store, but in general - trust that people are not out to screw you, understand that there are a myriad of reasons why your sword is not here, and that most of them are not due to malicious intent or negligence. This is especially true for a company with a proven track record (again, not "fanboying" as you put it, but simply an observation based on what I see here). I will reiterate that I was surprised by the wait for custom stuff - if I were ordering this myself, I would have been caught off guard by the longer than expected wait time and be a bit concerned. However, I would do some research and explore all the possibilities before wading into the forums insinuating malicious intent on behalf of the seller. Yes I would be angry, but I would look for solutions and information rather than wallowing in my frustration. We are really friendly, and not particular friends of the SBG store (I have only bought from them once, and it was a nice, albeit rather uneventful transaction). They could have told you the realities behind the custom order industry in general, maybe offer suggestions, or even buy it off you if you wanted to get out of the transaction - though the odds of that happening now are a bit slim
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Post by Dean on Apr 1, 2015 16:45:52 GMT
I am going to “swim against the tide”. I think most of us are “poor customers”. I look at the excuses so far. Chinese New year? This is not predictable, we have NEVER seen one? It should have been factored into the time of delivery Slow custom’s response? This is not predictable, we have NEVER seen one? It should have been factored into the time of delivery Hand forged, required reforging? This is not predictable, we have NEVER seen one? It should have been factored into the time of delivery
Person is having a” messy divorce” ? How many of us would expect to keep getting paid if we did not turn up to work for a month? Would you expect to keep your job? It APPEARS this person is taking ALL the risk: All the money up front, and to be delivered on a certain date. This is a contract. It is NOT reasonable to wait and hope the customer does not notice that you have not delivered on the agreed time, and even worse not reply to their enquires. The only recourse the customer has in this case is to “name and shame”, and let other potential buyers decide if this is something they are willing to put up with. Good on you for “naming and shaming”. I wish more customers did this. On no level is this acceptable practice. We as a community; should expect better service. Shame on you guys for allowing this type of “business” to succeed.
On the other side of the coin, we custom sword buyers need to write reviews if they give good service and extol their virtues.
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Post by Bryan Heff on Apr 1, 2015 17:01:59 GMT
Dean. Good points. I agree with them for the most part. Me personally, I am willing to accept certain delays and realize with custom work that is a VERY good possibility that they will happen. I think the key is good communication. That goes a very long way.
I do think that there is a certain amount of "risk" that the buyer needs to own when dealing in the custom market. How to quantify that risk is a personal thing. Everybody's tolerance threshold is going to vary. While I agree with you in principle on pretty much everything you said, I do think there needs to be some latitude on a timeline when talking custom work. Its not like its a Walmart.
Again though, everybody is going to have their own personal threshold.
I think what has gotten most people riled in this particular thread is not so much the "naming and shaming" it was/is the OPs aggressive and offensive tone. The members here do not work for the store, so putting us all on blast with "fanboy" name calling from the jump is going to have an effect, which as we have seen is not a positive one. Sharing your experience, all good. Doing it with a sledgehammer and in and insulting tone....we can all do without that.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Apr 1, 2015 17:15:11 GMT
That's what turned me off to him right from the start, it's like he came here with the sole purpose of attacking SBG store then he dragged us into it as well before we could even comment on it. Plus his name says a lot. I think if he started with questions instead of attacks thing would have gone a lot differently.
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Post by Dean on Apr 1, 2015 17:17:22 GMT
I am not sure I agree with this "latitude". Would the custom sword maker give the buyer "latitude" if they did not pay, and then the customer did not email as to why they have not paid? Even worse would the custom sword maker give "latitude" when the customer did not answer their enquires?
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Post by Bryan Heff on Apr 1, 2015 17:41:50 GMT
I am not sure I agree with this "latitude". Would the custom sword maker give the buyer "latitude" if they did not pay, and then the customer did not email as to why they have not paid? Even worse would the custom sword maker give "latitude" when the customer did not answer their enquires? I don't really want to get into a back and forth here. As I mentioned this latitude is going to be personal. Every custom maker/buyer situation is unique. If a buyer wants to dip into the custom market, there could be risk.
Right or wrong, like it or not....that is reality.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Apr 1, 2015 18:30:20 GMT
I am not sure I agree with this "latitude". Would the custom sword maker give the buyer "latitude" if they did not pay, and then the customer did not email as to why they have not paid? Even worse would the custom sword maker give "latitude" when the customer did not answer their enquires? Happens a lot, actually.
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Post by RicWilly on Apr 1, 2015 18:42:17 GMT
As far as the fanboy comment. That didn't bother me but then I'm not a fanboy. When we rise to bait like that we kinda look the part.
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Post by Croccifixio on Apr 1, 2015 19:52:57 GMT
There's a proper way to vent a legitimate frustration, but to go so far as to call a vendor "criminal" without proof of misappropriation of funds but only a delay is, again, inherently unfair. It's quite true - the SBG store indeed made a commitment it could not keep. But is the present delay of 1 month enough to create a breach of contract under law? Was time of the essence at the point in time when the both parties had a meeting of the minds?
Forgive me if I go technical here, but that's precisely what we have to be responsible for. At no point in time does a breach of contract, no matter how severe, turn criminal unless and until there is proof of fraud. Is OP prepared to lay the basis for that claim? Even breach of contract requires substantial breach, and there's no indication that 1 month is substantial enough. Otherwise no one would be in the construction business.
We as consumers must demand more in an ideal business setting to make sure people keep their commitments. Time and again it has happened that people have given good money and been burned by it. But there's a right way to do it. Even the wronged party cannot, in enforcing his right, trample upon the other's right to innocence and a good name.
In any case, that's why preselling is such a bad business model.
P.S. I took the time and read the words of the "contract." By virtue of the word "expected" delivery, I think any legal claim has no leg to stand on... Yet. The contract heavily implies a flexible schedule which is a case to case thing. It's already a legal disclaimer. But if sbg does not give any indication that they intend to complete the project (or refund the buyers), then you get a fraud case.
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Post by Afoo on Apr 1, 2015 20:19:24 GMT
Best not to feed the trolls I guess. Everyone has their opinions, and some of them will never change. Even after the OP did get an e-mail from SBG store (and good on them for reporting it), their opinion was still the same, and will remain so regardless of what we say here. The tone of first post and choice of username suggests that they are pretty dead-set on their beliefs, so I guess we shall accept that move on.
As one last note, I would recommend against labeling the SBG store as criminal - as I said before, there is no evidence for malicious intent here - perhaps some bad organization, but certainly not a systematic effort to defraud buyers. I think we need to be clear on that point
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Post by ineffableone on Apr 1, 2015 20:29:20 GMT
Personally I think too many people have no idea what custom ordering is about. There seems to be a pervasive idea that their custom order should have the utmost priority and reach them right away. I personally had a custom ordered leather quiver that took almost exactly a year to get. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/43872/hidehandler-mountain-hunter-quiver-reviewI saw plenty of other people online freaking out and calling this leather worker a crook etc, while I just patiently waited, for months before even contacting him the first time. Then once he explained his back log I waited some more. Occasionally sending requests for a progress update. I watched more and more people online who had ordered from him getting worked up over the delay, while others who had been previous customers tried to reassure them that it was fine and they would get their order eventually. I did obviously get my quiver, and I am quite happy I patiently waited. Back the the sword world. Every year here on SBG we get frantic people freaking out because of Chinese New Year and all communication stopping and them wondering what happened to the sword they ordered. This happens over and over because customers don't bother to research the expected issues of ordering from China and find out that there is a time of year when the Chinese just shut everything down. They don't learn about customs and importing of swords. They just order then wonder why it takes so long. I again will say that I think a lot of people just don't have any idea what custom ordering really means. The world has gotten so used to quick production that many have forgotten to have a bit of patience when ordering something custom. A lot of people don't realize that their custom order might not even be started right after it is placed, but be placed at the bottom of the list of other custom orders to be filled. There might be plenty of other orders ahead of them waiting to be filled. If someone doesn't have patience, they should not make custom orders. If someone freaks out about delays they should not make custom orders. If you want something right way, then order off the shelf models.
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Post by Afoo on Apr 1, 2015 20:34:00 GMT
yes, but you also have to have someone who is willing to listen to your advice and actually take it seriously.....
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Post by Dean on Apr 1, 2015 21:22:08 GMT
"Right or wrong, like it or not....that is reality. " I simply question that this needs to "reality". I think custom makers should be far more "up front" with how long it is going to take. Especially since the buyer in this case is taking "all the risk", Ie all the money up front.
And yes a date set is part of a contract. How about the buyer pays up whatever date suits them? You may notice when the shoe is on the other foot, you may think differently. The onus is on the business to "get it right", and be far more realist about the time it takes.
As to the "evocative statements" I have no comment.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Apr 1, 2015 21:59:01 GMT
You know what I would like to see here on SBG? A way we can put a NO SEE or a block on a post or a person like they have on Facebook. Reason, because this childish post is getting annoying. This is like the kid in school who would get a fight started then stand back and watch it grow out of control. I didn't come here for this sh--, I came here to exchange ideas, thoughts and knowledge on a hobby we all enjoy. Not this.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Apr 1, 2015 22:27:40 GMT
"Right or wrong, like it or not....that is reality. " I simply question that this needs to "reality". I think custom makers should be far more "up front" with how long it is going to take. Especially since the buyer in this case is taking "all the risk", Ie all the money up front. And yes a date set is part of a contract. How about the buyer pays up whatever date suits them? You may notice when the shoe is on the other foot, you may think differently. The onus is on the business to "get it right", and be far more realist about the time it takes. As to the "evocative statements" I have no comment. You must have never taken a custom order. ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 22:28:07 GMT
(sigh) I guess some folks just will not be able to figure this out. But I will try to pound the message home anyway.
This is NOT ABOUT having to wait for a custom order. Yes,of course I expected the wait and so did SBG Shop as they say the ship date would not be until Feb 15th (and I think that was actually pushed back from an earlier ship date, but can't remember so let's just go with the currently published 2-15-15 date). Most responders here are saying "be patient and wait". I have no problem with waiting FOR THE ORIGINAL PROMISED DATE or I would not have initially placed the order.
The issue (again) is that SBG shop promised to deliver AFTER the long wait, and failed to deliver per their own promise. So saying "wait some more" is not logical or reasonable. Again, here is an analogy -- if I promise you I will deliver a truckload of hamburgers to be delivered for your party on Saturday if you pay me $550 today, and based on this promise you pay me, and Saturday comes and goes and you have no hamburgers, would you say to yourself "Oh, I guess I'll wait until next Saturday". Then when next Saturday passes, you would say (per your own logic expressed in posts above) -- "Oh, things happen so I better wait till the next Saturday...and so on? How many Saturdays (read: promises) would you endure before you did anything more than wait longer? There is an endless number of possible excuses - but the fact remains the initial promise has been broken. Nothing can change that, it is a historical fact now. Legally speaking -- contract off, breach of contract on SBG's part. End of story -- restitution is owed.
I don't know how much more simple to make this -- SBG made promises. They knew about customs, Chinese New Year, total eclipse of the sun, whatever -- as pointed out they have done 30 batches of these things and should know the process (that is THEIR business after all). They broke the promises -- all of them. Why should I have pity? Why should I wait longer for their next excuse to come along?
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