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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 2, 2015 20:45:11 GMT
The type of so called forging you are talking about it more stamping than forging. I've seen the videoes of snap on wrenches being made. Yes the steel in heated put in a die and hit one time by a large power hammer or press. No, it is purely a forging process, and is no more related to stamping than any other form of hammer forging is. Stamping is done with relatively thin sheet metal, cold, and it doesn't affect the internal structure of the metal; it is simply a bending process, no different than using a sheet metal brake at home. And practically every high quality wrench, ratchet, socket, etc. ever made for the past century or so has been drop forged, not just Snap-on (Snap-on is widely regarded as the best, so I used them as an example). By the way, it is usually more than one hit for something like a fairly large wrench. Some small, thin parts can be drop forged with one hit. Which is why race engine crankshafts are typically drop forged? All USGI M1911s and M1911A1s (manufactured from 1911 to 1945 by various companies, such as Colt, Union Switch & Signal (railroad company), Singer (sewing machine company), Remington Rand (typewriter company), Remington UMC (gun company), Ithaca, Springfield Armory (the real Springfield Armory, not Springfield Armory, Inc., which is entirely unrelated) ... had drop forged frames and slides. A 1911 frame and slide both need extensive milling after drop forging the rough shape, because of the internal hollowed-out/recessed areas that can't be created via drop forging. However, there is not nearly as much waste as if they were machined from barstock. Colt still uses drop forged frames and slides, as do various other manufacturers who make 1911 style guns. That's far from a fact. Let me know when some cast 1911 frames are still holding up after 103 years of service, as the oldest USGI M1911s have done. Granted, they aren't used all that much anymore, but they were the standard U.S. military sidearm until 1985, at which point the oldest ones in inventory were 74 years old, and the newest ones in inventory were 40 years old.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Mar 3, 2015 2:54:34 GMT
Who would have thought it was possible to selectively pick definitions to suit a specific view? What? Oh, anyone would have thought that? Interesting that you left out the second part of your own first definition from Webster’s – b : to form (metal) by a mechanical or hydraulic press with or without heat. - which includes something other than hammering.
In any case, here are the definitions of forging from, first the AISI: Forging - A metal part worked to predetermined shape by one or more processes such as hammering, pressing, or rolling. And second, from The ASM International Metals Reference book: Forging -
The process of working metal to a desired shape by impact or pressure in hammers, forging machines, presses, rolls, and related forming equipment. Forging hammers, counterblow equipment, and high-energy-rate forging machines apply impact to the workpiece, while most other types of forging equipment apply squeeze pressure in shaping the stock. Some metals can be forged at room temperature, but most are made more plastic for forging by heating.
I would consider either of these sources to be more reliable than what you might find on “google” in terms of an accurate definition of a metal working process. I think most people here would agree.
The internal crystalline structure of a piece of processed steel will be dissolved and re-grown during heat treatment without much regard to the pressure exerted on it while it was worked. If you were making sword blades from processed steel which still had “chaff” in it, I would suggest obtaining steel from a different supplier.
In order to evaluate this comment from another forum which seems to have nothing to do with swords or sword making we would have to look at several things; Are there steels used for sword blades which contain significant amounts of primary carbides? Are these steels readily obtainable in both hammered and rolled stock so that one might actually be considered more desirable than the other? Then, if the answer to both these questions were yes, to what extent is this “streaking” going to be found in the processed steel before it is formed into a blade? To what extent will it be present after heat treating? What, if any affect does this have on the finished blade?
Not anything I feel compelled to spend my time on.
I would think the final process of any sword sized bar of steel from the mill is going to be rolling (except for tool steel which is ground to precise shape after rolling), in which case this tendency will always be present on any sword steel purchased from a mill. Before you get your feathers too ruffled about people disagreeing with you, you may want to reconsider how you are approaching this forum. One post about the origins of the “Hollywood ninja sword”, another about why wax should be used for sword blades because of its superiority to oil, and this one about your belief that drop forging would produce the highest quality blades and why isn’t anyone using that method. Curious.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 3, 2015 3:17:46 GMT
Who would have thought it was possible to selectively pick definitions to suit a specific view? What? Oh, anyone would have thought that? Interesting that you left out the second part of your own first definition from Webster’s – b : to form (metal) by a mechanical or hydraulic press with or without heat. - which includes something other than hammering.
No, it is not "interesting" at all, considering I said that there was more than one definition (meaning I wasn't disputing that some definitions allow for rolling to be considered forging). The entire point was to prove that, contrary to your "by the actual definition" claim, not all definitions allow for anything other than hammer forging to be considered forging. Also, an ordinary dictionary is the best source for "common-speak" definitions, and the first one given is usually the one which represents how the word is most often used in vernacular. Yes, more than one definition, like I've already said. See above. Do you know how words in the English language are defined in the first place? There is no governing body like there is for e.g. French. English words are defined by real-world usage. Dictionary publishers don't invent definitions, they record generally accepted definitions that naturally exist in vernacular. As for "reliability", Webster's has been the de facto standard American English dictionary since the 19th century. Again, the point here is that there is more than one definition, which renders your following claim ... ... false. Change the words "by the actual definition" to "by one definition", and it would be a true statement. There is no "actual definition"; there are multiple definitions, and common-speak definitions are the default unless noted. How's the weather out there in deep, deep left field? Your non sequitur is dismissed.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Mar 3, 2015 3:29:38 GMT
dude... you need to chill out. Dismissing people on the board who have time and again shown their talents just isn't a cool move on your part. You may have differing views about certain issues you've raised, but attacking others isn't the way do go about any real constructive argument. I'll just leave it at that.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 3, 2015 3:52:20 GMT
dude... you need to chill out. Dismissing people on the board who have time and again shown their talents just isn't a cool move on your part. You may have differing views about certain issues you've raised, but attacking others isn't the way do go about any real constructive argument. I'll just leave it at that. My reply was to this: What does that has to do with drop forged blades? Nothing. It is pure ad hominem, and a non sequitur (which means it doesn't logically follow from anything in this thread). Fallacies such as ad hominem and non sequiturs can legitimately be dismissed out of hand. This isn't dismissing a person (nor is it an "attack"), it is dismissing their fallacy due to its irrelevance.
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Post by Pogo4321 on Mar 3, 2015 4:15:43 GMT
Felt the need to educate a little bit here. Max said "Also, an ordinary dictionary is the best source for "common-speak" definitions, and the first one given is usually the one which represents how the word is most often used in vernacular." Not sure 'd say "usually" here as another very common way for dictionaries to list the senses of a word is oldest first and as we know language evolves. From Webster's On-line dictionary: "Order of Senses: The order of senses within an entry is historical: the sense known to have been first used in English is entered first."
Anyways, people need to get to know their dictionary.
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Post by chrisperoni on Mar 3, 2015 4:17:59 GMT
dude... you need to chill out. Dismissing people on the board who have time and again shown their talents just isn't a cool move on your part. You may have differing views about certain issues you've raised, but attacking others isn't the way do go about any real constructive argument. I'll just leave it at that. My reply was to this: What does that has to do with drop forged blades? Nothing. It is pure ad hominem, and a non sequitur (which means it doesn't logically follow from anything in this thread). Fallacies such as ad hominem and non sequiturs can legitimately be dismissed out of hand. This isn't dismissing a person (nor is it an "attack"), it is dismissing their fallacy due to its irrelevance. MaximRecoil you are missing the point.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Mar 3, 2015 4:20:17 GMT
Just what is you back to call us all wrong all the time, besides having a better command of the English languish than do. The 1911 frames to are talking about aren't that strong they are actually very soft. Are you a shooter are gunsmith. Ruger makes cast frames along with a few other they are consider the strongest guns around.
Do you do any kind of blacksmithing if you do show your work.
Do you build race engines, we do.
So far all you have did since you got on here is start threads then call people stupid. Do you even own a sword or axe.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Mar 3, 2015 4:23:21 GMT
By the way guess you've ever heard of hot stamped steel since it doesn't meet your needs in this thread.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 3, 2015 4:45:32 GMT
"Order of Senses: The order of senses within an entry is historical: the sense known to have been first used in English is entered first." Which in most cases corresponds with the most common real world application. It is somewhat uncommon for a newer sense of a word to become more popular than an older sense of a word before the older sense of the word is considered archaic (in which case, the dictionary labels it as archaic). To demonstrate this to yourself, simply look up random words in the dictionary. More often than not, the first definition is the most commonly used one. An exception I can think of off the top of my head is "gay", which as little as several decades ago was more commonly used to mean "happy" than anything else. With regard to forge specifically, in common-speak, it means to hammer forge. When you see the word forged on a product, such as a tool at the hardware store, it means hammer forged. The U.S. English version of the OED doesn't even list a newer sense of the word: That's the definition which Google gives as well if you search for forge definition.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 3, 2015 5:35:43 GMT
The 1911 frames to are talking about aren't that strong they are actually very soft. Their service record speaks for itself. In any event, they were drop forged, just as I said in the first place, and nearly all steel-framed 1911 type pistols today still use drop forged frames and slides. Ruger's investment cast frames are strong enough for their purpose, but they are not generally considered "the strongest guns around" (much like cast crankshafts are strong enough for average engines, i.e., less than 350 HP or so, but they are far from the strongest crankshafts around). Their reputation for strength was originally built around the Blackhawk, which due to its beefier frame (particularly, a much thicker topstrap) and modern steel, was stronger than the 19th century Colt SAAs which inspired it (which were only designed to handle low-pressure black powder loads). This allowed them to handle hotter cartridges than an SAA, such as the .44 Magnum, and heavy .45 Colt loads. Freedom Arms large frame single action revolvers are widely considered to be the strongest in that category. Note that Ruger cylinders and barrels are not cast. Your bald-faced lie is dismissed. I know it as "press hardening". In any event, if you were referring to "hot stamped steel", why did you leave out the word "hot"?
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Mar 3, 2015 5:47:01 GMT
You are dismissed you have no idea what you are taking about you will be gone soon troll. Not going to waste any more time on you and your threads.
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Post by Pogo4321 on Mar 3, 2015 5:47:43 GMT
"Order of Senses: The order of senses within an entry is historical: the sense known to have been first used in English is entered first." Which in most cases corresponds with the most common real world application. It is somewhat uncommon for a newer sense of a word to become more popular than an older sense of a word before the older sense of the word is considered archaic (in which case, the dictionary labels it as archaic). To demonstrate this to yourself, simply look up random words in the dictionary. More often than not, the first definition is the most commonly used one. An exception I can think of off the top of my head is "gay", which as little as several decades ago was more commonly used to mean "happy" than anything else. With regard to forge specifically, in common-speak, it means to hammer forge. When you see the word forged on a product, such as a tool at the hardware store, it means hammer forged. The U.S. English version of the OED doesn't even list a newer sense of the word: That's the definition which Google gives as well if you search for forge definition. Not sure this is important enough to get into a long conversation, but... The oldest being most common--authority needed for acceptance. Gay is a good example. forged meaning hammer forged on a tool--again authority, please. OED does list a newer definition, "Produce a copy or imitation of (a document, signature, banknote, or work or art) for the purpose of deception"; admittedly not a relevant definition. So what was your point again? Drop forged is superior to hammer forged?
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 3, 2015 6:35:39 GMT
Not sure this is important enough to get into a long conversation, but... The oldest being most common--authority needed for acceptance. I didn't say the oldest is the most common; I said it usually is, and I elaborated on it. I base this on having looked up countless words in the dictionary over the past 35 years or so, and noting that the first definition is usually the most common one. Feel free to not accept this. How many others can you think of? If you don't accept that the first definition is usually the most common one, then examples where newer definitions are more common should be extremely plentiful. Feel free not to accept this bit of common knowledge. If you actually want to know if it is true or not, contact every tool manufacturer you can think of and ask them what they mean when they say their tools are "forged". Exactly, it is irrelevant, which is why I didn't mention it. Read my previous posts in this thread; my point is contained in some of those.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Mar 3, 2015 8:27:52 GMT
Again I will ask you what is your back ground, besides quoting other people work. Can already tell you don't really know any thing about guns.
You can out write me and maybe out talk me, but I doubt you can out shoot me, out forge me, or built a better engine than me.
Drop forging is only part of what makes gun a frame good or bad the type of steel and heat treat are a lot more important. Don't keep bring up the old 1911 frames. They had to have steel inserts put in the frames to keep them from wearing out during competition shooting. Those old frames were really only good for 5,000 rounds.
Ruger build their on the old security, speed and service six revolvers. Their cylinder and barrels are milled.
You know you have really did something when you can get Chris to call you a troll, it's a first for him.
The biggest reason tools are drop forged is that it is fast and cheap to do. Not all drop forged tool are good.
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Post by karishamarsh on Mar 3, 2015 13:54:13 GMT
You are dismissed you have no idea what you are taking about you will be gone soon troll. Not going to waste any more time on you and your threads. Somebody challenges your opinion then because you don't like it they are a 'TROLL' and won't be here long!? Who do you think you are??? You're nothing special around here!
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Mar 3, 2015 14:25:06 GMT
And you are after only 15 post, think someone has two accounts.
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Post by karishamarsh on Mar 3, 2015 14:49:20 GMT
And you are after only 15 post, think someone has two accounts. What has accusing me of having 2 accounts got to do with anything? You speak to others like a cyber bully and are quick to undermine new members in here. I think your attitude stinks and it's a wonder YOU are still here if anyone. That stinking attitude I would expect in the barbarian medieval section, this is the JAPANSESE sword section. What are you doing here in the first place? Go make some 'bastard' swords or something pssh...
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Mar 3, 2015 14:55:25 GMT
I'm getting the same vibe - seems fishy to me that 2 people show up on the same day and have the same views regarding "logic", argumentation, etc, and are totally dismissive of the same person(s) just like the other one. Might be they either have extremely similar personalities/views, or more plausible, one person with at least 2 separate accounts.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 3, 2015 15:29:29 GMT
Can already tell you don't really know any thing about guns. As the old saying goes: "I've probably forgotten more about guns than you'll ever know." When you make the claim that "cast frames are just as good as forged", without qualification, it carries the default assumption that all else is equal, because only one variable is being mentioned (i.e., cast vs. forged). If you want to claim that frames cast from X type of steel, with Y method of heat treatment are better than frames forged from Z type of steel with N method of heat treatment, then that is obviously an entirely different claim. Simply saying that "cast frames are just as good as forged" is false. That claim doesn't even make sense, but I would love to hear you describe in detail this alleged "steel insert", and where it was placed in the frame, and how it served to "keep them from wearing out during competition shooting". The only steel insert for a 1911-style frame I've ever heard of is a steel feed ramp insert which some people use for aluminum frame 1911 type guns (such as the Colt Commander). The original feed ramp is milled out of the frame, and a steel feed ramp insert is placed in the milled-out pocket. It is retained with a screw or a pin through the side of the frame, which is concealed by the slide release lever when the gun is fully assembled. The main stress on a steel 1911 frame (and all USGI M1911s and M1911A1s had steel frames) comes from the slide impacting the frame when it cycles each time you fire it (i.e., the back of the slide's recoil spring housing area impacts the front of the frame where the recoil spring guide rests (located at the rear of the frame's "dust cover"). Technically it hits the head of the recoil spring guide, but since that is steel, and it is backed directly against the frame, most of the impact is transmitted to the frame as well. The impact isn't severe if you have a proper 16 to 18 pound recoil spring in good condition (heavier weights are available, but they may impede reliable functioning, especially with light loads), but as the recoil spring weakens over the course of firing many rounds, the slide to frame impact gets worse (due to less resistance to slow the slide's momentum during its rearward travel). Replacing your recoil spring every 1,000 rounds helps protect your frame. The only "insert" I've ever heard of which is claimed by some people to help in this matter is not made of steel (which would be counter productive), but rather, a rubber type substance. It is a rubber washer which slides over your recoil spring guide, which provides a buffer between the slide and frame when the slide cycles (Wilson Combat for example, markets them under the name of "Shok-Buff". The wisdom behind using these in a 1911 has been hotly debated for a long time. Utterly false. Where are you coming up with these "facts"? 5,000 rounds is next to nothing. The trials which resulted in the selection of the 1911 as the standard U.S. military sidearm in the first place involved firing 6,000 rounds under harsh conditions. The Colt 1911 didn't have a single failure to feed or fire, and there were no defective parts at the end of the test. In the late 1960s the U.S. Navy tested an accurized competition M1911A1 to determine the effects of wear and tear on accuracy. They fired 35,000 rounds. At the start it grouped 2.5" @ 50 yards from a machine rest (which is excellent for a 1911). After 25,000 rounds it still grouped 2.5". At 30,000 rounds it grouped 3.5", and at 35,000 rounds it grouped 4.5". Note that 4.5" @ 50 yards is still better than most box-stock 1911s can do. Go ahead and reread what I said about the Blackhawk. The Blackhawk was Ruger's first centerfire handgun. It came out in the 1950s at a time when Western genre movies and TV shows were all the rage in the U.S., featuring "cowboys" toting Colt Single Action Army (Model P) guns. This created a demand for that style of revolver, but real Colt SAAs (only 1st and 2nd generation versions were available at the time) were in short supply, because they'd been out of production since before WWII. Ruger scaled up their Single Six (a small, rimfire version of an SAA style revolver) to SAA size, and offered it in .357 Magnum. It was a big hit. Its reputation for strength (as compared to an SAA) came along when they offered the Blackhawk in .45 Colt. All factory .45 Colt loads on the market at the time were very weak; they approximated the old .45 Colt black powder loads. This was to allow them to be safely fired in old SAAs, which were designed for those weak loads. However, the .45 Colt cartridge has a lot of potential, because of its large case capacity (greater than the .44 Magnum). Elmer Keith, most famous for developing hot .44 Special handloads (which later became the basis for the .44 Magnum cartridge), also developed hot .45 Colt handloads. Handloaders soon realized that the Blackhawk could handle these hot loads, and thus its reputation for toughness was born. What does that have to do with anything? All gun parts are milled or otherwise machined after they are cast or forged. The point is, if casting is just as good as forging, why not cast the cylinder and barrel? Because that would be absurd, that's why. And forging is the best method of rough-shaping steel, and drop forging is the best method of forging. This is a non sequitur.
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