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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 1, 2015 11:09:12 GMT
In videos I've seen of swords being made today in Chinese factories, they are either forged with a handheld hammer or an ordinary power hammer. Drop forging would save a lot of time, and it has consistent/uniform results. This is how things like high quality tools (e.g., a Snap-on wrench), high quality crankshafts (such as a race engine crankshaft), high quality gun frames (such as an M1911 frame), and so on are made. Drop forging is done with a power hammer which has a set of dies, so it shapes the hot steel to its rough final shape in a quick series of hammer blows (in some cases only 1 hammer blow is needed) with little or no human input required ( here is an example video). This is different than forging with an ordinary power hammer, which doesn't have a set of dies, and is functionally no different than using a handheld hammer, i.e., human input determines the shape rather than a set of dies determining the shape. Dies for drop forging are expensive, and they don't last forever. Obviously the expense is worth it, at least in some cases, else no one would do it. Due to the consistent/uniform results every time, I believe that drop forging would consistently produce the highest quality blades.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Mar 1, 2015 12:10:47 GMT
I think the Hanwei monolithic blades (Qi Jian, Trondheim) might have been drop-forged.
After the forging, there's still heat treatment, final grinding, and polishing (and mounting the blade, but that's not just the blade).
Hot rolling is an alternative modern mechanised forging method.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Mar 1, 2015 13:01:19 GMT
I did a quick read in WIKI about Drop Forging and I don't see any advantage to it w.r.t. the quality output of the tool made. Not counting the very, very few cases where a hammer forged sword may have a weld flaw (I rarely hear this happening nowadays) I don't know why Drop Forging would improve the steel's crystalline structure and make a better sword/tool. Especially when the steel's crystalline structure is more dependent on the steel's composition and heat treat process. But please tell me if I'm wrong.
But if you're convinced that drop forged makes for a better sword or knife, then why not buy one that was made by stock removal. It would be just as good, much cheaper, and there are thousands of knife-makers that use this process.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 1, 2015 13:42:05 GMT
I did a quick read in WIKI about Drop Forging and I don't see any advantage to it w.r.t. the quality output of the tool made. Not counting the very, very few cases where a hammer forged sword may have a weld flaw (I rarely hear this happening nowadays) I don't know why Drop Forging would improve the steel's crystalline structure and make a better sword/tool. Especially when the steel's crystalline structure is more dependent on the steel's composition and heat treat process. But please tell me if I'm wrong. Drop forging is just more consistent than manually forging, since the exact same thing is happening every single time (human error is taken out of the equation). If manual forging is done ~perfectly, then it will be just as good as drop forging. I'm not concerned about it for myself, as I intend to get a folded steel sword (which wouldn't really be practical to make by drop forging), simply because I like the traditional aesthetics of folded steel, and I don't plan to use the sword for anything anyway. As for "stock removal", are you talking about "machined from barstock"? If it is forged barstock (not all barstock is produced by forging), then it would be just as good I suppose, though wasteful. Forging steel into the rough final shape in the first place means that far less steel has to be removed in order to finish it.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Mar 1, 2015 14:11:52 GMT
I don't know how the barstock is made, but it would have to be forged in some manner in order to have a consistent composition. Then it's either cold rolled or hot rolled. I don't think it matters because heat treating changes everything. Wasteful? Well that's how the majority of custom blades are made (stock removal). And it's degradable - came from the ground and goes back into the ground.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 1, 2015 15:12:50 GMT
I don't know how the barstock is made, but it would have to be forged in some manner in order to have a consistent composition. Then it's either cold rolled or hot rolled. I don't think it matters because heat treating changes everything. Wasteful? Well that's how the majority of custom blades are made (stock removal). And it's degradable - came from the ground and goes back into the ground. Barstock can be made by hammer forging (e.g., drop forging), rolling, or extruding. Most of the commercially available stuff is made by rolling or extruding. Machining parts from barstock is always wasteful compared to forging it roughly to shape and then machining it, which is why it is usually only done for custom or low volume production items. It is also useful for people who don't know how to forge, don't have the setup to forge, or don't want to be bothered with forging. The wastefulness I'm referring to is with regard to materials, and wasted materials = wasted money. I'm not talking about "the environment". Forging is the best method of shaping steel, and drop forging is the most consistent method of forging. Not only does forging give the steel a desirable internal structure, but it also helps separate the wheat from the chaff; i.e., internal flaws in the steel are likely to become apparent during the forging process, such as breaking apart under the force of the hammer. If the steel survived the forging process, you can be pretty sure it doesn't have any significant internal flaws. Heat treating is a separate issue. You can heat treat e.g. cast steel, but it isn't as good as properly forged (and heat treated) steel, all else being equal.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Mar 1, 2015 15:21:43 GMT
I agree with what you say except "wasted materials = wasted money". I think the cost of manhours is much more than the cost of the typical steels and the relatively small amount wasted. I think it's cheaper to do stock removal than it is to forge when all things are included (but I never did an accurate cost analysis so I'm claiming this is just an educated guess, I could be wrong).
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 1, 2015 16:17:56 GMT
I agree with what you say except "wasted materials = wasted money". I think the cost of manhours is much more than the cost of the typical steels and the relatively small amount wasted. I think it's cheaper to do stock removal than it is to forge when all things are included (but I never did an accurate cost analysis so I'm claiming this is just an educated guess, I could be wrong). That's one of the main benefits of drop forging as opposed to manual forging, i.e., it is very quick. Some things can be drop forged with a single blow of the hammer; others require several blows, but either way, it takes no more than a couple of minutes per piece. The reason that everyone isn't doing it is because it has an expensive start up cost; the die set alone can be $15,000 or more, and you can drop forge about 10,000 pieces with it before it needs to be replaced. So each piece you drop forge costs about $1.50 worth of wear and tear on your dies, but you've also saved a lot of machining time compared to machining from bar stock, and very little steel gets wasted. A lot more steel gets wasted when machining from barstock than you might think. Suppose you are making a generic wedge-shaped cross-section blade; literally half the steel will get wasted. On the other hand, if it is forged, hardly any steel will get wasted (only what little gets removed during the polishing and sharpening stages).
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Post by Croccifixio on Mar 2, 2015 3:01:12 GMT
Would you know of any production company with the ability to invest in that without any certainty that it would work better than stock removal?
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Post by ineffableone on Mar 2, 2015 5:17:38 GMT
There are drop forge axes and hammer forged axes out on the market. Guess which has better quality?
Yep the hammer forged ones.
You want to know why?
Because as nice as it sounds to have constant repeatable drop forging. Not every piece of metal will be the same. Those human variances you think of as imperfect and error are actually needed along with the human's ability to judge and decide what is needed.
Again and again in the axe world you will find the cheap inexpensive drop forged axes perform substandard to the handforged ones.
For example the Friskars drop forged axes vs Wetterlings or Gransfors Bruks hand forged axes. The Friskars axe is cheap, but does not perform anywhere near the league of the hand forged Swedish axes.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 2, 2015 10:08:28 GMT
There are drop forge axes and hammer forged axes out on the market. Guess which has better quality? Yep the hammer forged ones. You want to know why? Because as nice as it sounds to have constant repeatable drop forging. Not every piece of metal will be the same. Those human variances you think of as imperfect and error are actually needed along with the human's ability to judge and decide what is needed. Again and again in the axe world you will find the cheap inexpensive drop forged axes perform substandard to the handforged ones. For example the Friskars drop forged axes vs Wetterlings or Gransfors Bruks hand forged axes. The Friskars axe is cheap, but does not perform anywhere near the league of the hand forged Swedish axes. Have there been actual tests comparing drop forged and manually hammer forged axes, where all else is equal? "All else being equal" is critical, i.e., if you compare two axes, one which is manually hammer forged, and one which is drop forged, but they use different grades of steel, and/or different bevel angles, and/or different heat treatment, etc., you don't have a valid basis for comparison, because there are more variables in the comparison than just the different methods of forging. It looks like your theory is a common one in the world of axes. The following article discusses it: Drop forging is the industry standard for top quality, professional tools, and has been for a very long time.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Mar 2, 2015 11:21:54 GMT
Most sword making companies are pretty small. At least that is how I've understood it. I don't think making such large investment would be beneficial as swords are not sold in huge quantities. Production swords are already sold at crazy cheap prices.
Most popular sword in HuaWeis current stock has sold 37 copies. You can see how long time Albion limited editions take to sell out (of course they are in above average price range).
As far as Fiskars is concerned, the company is huge, currently valued at 1,5 billion €. They make things in huge volume, you can walk in any hardware store anywhere in Finland and I can guarantee you will find tools made by Fiskars. Same for the general stores & markets, you will find household items, kitchen stuff, scissors etc. by Fiskars everywhere in Finland. Their sheer volume is massive in here. There are 3500+ employees working for Fiskars - Where as Gränsfors has 30 - Wetterlings has 9.
Fiskars X-series axes have sold over 3 million units worldwide after the launch of the series in 2010.
We've had lots of tools from Fiskars over the years axes, bill hooks, garden tools, multifuntion cutters etc. They all are affordable and very well made for the price. Most people who need an axe here in Scandinavia buy it as a tool and don't need the actual best one. Just a simple tool that will do the job is all that is needed. Fiskars axes (and other tools) do their intended job very well, maybe handforged axes might perform bit better but most regular folks won't bother on going for one.
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Scott
Member
Posts: 1,680
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Post by Scott on Mar 2, 2015 12:43:34 GMT
I think you'll find the reason the hand forged axes perform better is due to the higher level of finishing. So it's more that they perform better out of the box. Albion swords are the same, it's not the CNC machine that makes a top level blade, it's all the work that gets done after that.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Mar 2, 2015 14:23:48 GMT
Drop forging would be a hugely expensive way to produce sword blades. Imagine the size of the machine and dies needed to produce a sword-length, drop forged piece. Even a more regular sized drop forged piece would need to sell in huge numbers to become profitable. This means it could only work for the lower end swords in the price range that sells in large numbers. Those swords are generally produced using very cheap human labor. This is the reason those companies make forged swords using humans rather than milling them out as Albion does, the human labor oand old machinery used is cheaper than investing in an expensive new machine.
Inconsistency in the hammering techniques of a human forging a sword vs a machine drop forging wouldn't really be an issue. This is because those inconsistencies in the crystalline structure go away during the heat treatment of the blade. The only inconsistency which could be an issue in a forged blade would then be the surface finish, which would be taken care of during the final grinding of the blade. Those inconsistencies remain in low quality blades because it is not worth the cost to finish them to a higher level.
All barstock is forged. Part of the process of making a finished bar or plate of steel is forging it to remove porosity and spread out inclusions. In many instances this is accomplished by rolling the steel, which is still forging; the steel is compressed while hot and the shape changes - this is forging.
What is more wasteful depends on where you see the waste. Forging is more wasteful than stock removal because it uses more gas or coal. Stock removal is more wasteful than forging because it uses more steel. Drop forging is more wasteful than both because is uses far more resources to produce the equipment needed to drop forge. The steel wasted during stock removal could be melted down and reused, not so the gas used in forging. It just depends on how you want to look at it.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 2, 2015 14:55:02 GMT
All barstock is forged. Part of the process of making a finished bar or plate of steel is forging it to remove porosity and spread out inclusions. In many instances this is accomplished by rolling the steel, which is still forging; the steel is compressed while hot and the shape changes - this is forging. Hammer forged (which includes drop forged) barstock is the exception, rather than the rule. Most of it is rolled or extruded. Some places consider rolling to be a type of forging process, and some don't, but either way, it is not hammer forging, which is what "forging" means in common-speak. Drop forging is usually used for large scale mass production when high strength is called for, which suggests it is the most cost effective method. If it were more cost effective to machine from barstock or manually hammer forge, then I expect that's what companies like Snap-on, Colt (firearms), Estwing, Eagle (crankshafts) and so on, would do. Obviously there is a large startup cost for drop forging (which I've mentioned previously), so whether it is worth it or not depends on your production volume.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Mar 2, 2015 15:42:03 GMT
What "forged" means in your mind, or what you believe it means in common-speak doesn't really have any affect on the actual meaning of the word or the results created by the process. Forging is changing the shape of the metal while it is hot, it doesn't require that it be hit with a hammer. The rolling process done to the steel at the mill is forging and produces the same results as other means of forging, e.i. it removes porosity in the cast steel ingot and spreads out impurities. Your statement here - "As for "stock removal", are you talking about "machined from barstock"? If it is forged barstock (not all barstock is produced by forging), then it would be just as good I suppose, though wasteful." suggests that a blade machined from barstock which is not forged could be inferior. Because all barstock is forged (by the actual definition, not but what someone may think forged means) this is inaccurate. If you buy a piece of barstock, it has already had it's porosity removed and impurities spread out and so, after heat treatment, will result in a blade with the same structure as one which was hand forged or forged by machine. The only way this would not be true would be if you ground a blade out of a piece of cast steel, which I can't imagine any blade maker being dumb enough to do.
Here you give the exact reason why it is not done. Sword blades are not sold in a large enough quantity for drop forging to be cost effective. In parts of the world where labor is cheap, it's more cost effective to have humans forge the blades. In parts of the world where labor is expensive, it can cheaper to have the blades milled if a high degree of accuracy and consistency is desired. Forging of complex shapes such as tools and engine cranks has an advantage over machining because the large scale grain of the metal can be made to follow the shape of the finished object. If you imagine cutting a piece of wood into the shape of a crank, you can see how this would not be desirable and how steam bending the wood into the shape would be stronger. Sword blades are pretty flat, and so this is not a concern as it would be for tools or machine parts.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 2, 2015 16:37:43 GMT
What "forged" means in your mind, or what you believe it means in common-speak doesn't really have any affect on the actual meaning of the word or the results created by the process. Forging is changing the shape of the metal while it is hot, it doesn't require that it be hit with a hammer. The rolling process done to the steel at the mill is forging and produces the same results as other means of forging, e.i. it removes porosity in the cast steel ingot and spreads out impurities. Your statement here - "As for "stock removal", are you talking about "machined from barstock"? If it is forged barstock (not all barstock is produced by forging), then it would be just as good I suppose, though wasteful." suggests that a blade machined from barstock which is not forged could be inferior. Because all barstock is forged (by the actual definition, not but what someone may think forged means) this is inaccurate.
I know exactly what "forged" means in common-speak; it is not a "belief". Also, there is more than one definition. From Webster's: From Google: Neither of those definitions allow for rolling to be considered forging. That's not necessarily true. The amount of pressure used affects structure. Also, as I mentioned before, one of the benefits of hammer forging, especially with powered hammers, is that it helps separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Since there is a physical difference between continuous, even pressure (rolling), and pressure from high speed impacts (hammer), rolling and extruding don't have this benefit, at least not to the same degree. Also: Also, from the same thread:
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Mar 2, 2015 18:27:32 GMT
The type of so called forging you are talking about it more stamping than forging. I've seen the videoes of snap on wrenches being made. Yes the steel in heated put in a die and hit one time by a large power hammer or press. This type of forging inless the steel is rolled proper can leave voids in the inside of the steel.
Also a 1911 frame is milled from a piece of forged steel. A alot of waste making them. Also a cast 1911 frame in as good as a forged frame.
You are talking to people who do both forging and stock removeable blades. There is no difference in the strength of the blades.
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Post by Bryan Heff on Mar 2, 2015 18:45:25 GMT
I agree with what you say except "wasted materials = wasted money". I think the cost of manhours is much more than the cost of the typical steels and the relatively small amount wasted. I think it's cheaper to do stock removal than it is to forge when all things are included (but I never did an accurate cost analysis so I'm claiming this is just an educated guess, I could be wrong). That's one of the main benefits of drop forging as opposed to manual forging, i.e., it is very quick. Some things can be drop forged with a single blow of the hammer; others require several blows, but either way, it takes no more than a couple of minutes per piece. The reason that everyone isn't doing it is because it has an expensive start up cost; the die set alone can be $15,000 or more, and you can drop forge about 10,000 pieces with it before it needs to be replaced. So each piece you drop forge costs about $1.50 worth of wear and tear on your dies, but you've also saved a lot of machining time compared to machining from bar stock, and very little steel gets wasted. A lot more steel gets wasted when machining from barstock than you might think. Suppose you are making a generic wedge-shaped cross-section blade; literally half the steel will get wasted. On the other hand, if it is forged, hardly any steel will get wasted (only what little gets removed during the polishing and sharpening stages).
Steel is pretty cheap though these days so yeah its wasted but does it really matter, I mean from a purely financial standpoint. Back in the day...the preciousness of good steel being wasted would have been a different matter.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Mar 2, 2015 20:14:47 GMT
Just saw an ad for drop-forged swords. Wing Chun butterfly swords, one piece with integral guard.
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