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Post by Draven on Jan 12, 2015 1:58:07 GMT
Howdy folks!
Something I've been pondering on lately. I usually favor scabbards on baldrics: they're quick to don and can be made to hang in pretty much the same ways as scabbards hung from a belt. They can flop around a bit, but putting a belt over it solves that. Downsides are that they put weight on the shoulder rather than the hips and as I said, they can flop around a bit. Recently I've been thinking about doing sword belts instead, which leads me to wonder what types people favor.
I've seen one, two and three point suspension. Personally I don't care for one point, as there's just too much movement in the scabbard for my liking. Two point I can understand, but three point is a bit of a puzzle to me; is there any advantage to it? Most 3 point scabbards I've seen have three points of contact on the scabbard but only two on the belt anyway, so I can't really see where the benefit lies. They do look cool though, which is the main reason for my questioning about them.
Anyway, what kind of scabbard suspension do y'all favor? High, low? One, two three point? Maybe just a belt that holds the sword tight to the side?
Pete
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 12, 2015 2:49:06 GMT
My preferred three options are
(a) For short swords, tucked through belt, no mounts on scabbard needed. Prefer across front of body. No movement, easy access. Longer blades can be worn at the side (i.e., like a katana), rather than at the front.
(b) Scabbard slide (or "strap bridge", as they are usually called on Viking scabbards). Popular from East Asia through Central Asia to Europe where they were used on Viking and Celtic scabbards. Note that the scabbard goes between belt and body.
(c) Single-point, attached with as little movement as possible to belt, at left hip. This can be done with a two-point suspension where you can hook the sword to the belt, swapping between a fairly horizontal two-point carry to a vertical one-point carry. (Useful for using one on horseback, and the other on foot.) If tied to the belt, or hooked to the belt, there will be a single point of attachment to the belt. An alternative is a c. 1900 style frog attached to the belt by two straps - one attachment point on the scabbard, two on the belt.
I like these because these minimise movement of the scabbard, while being comfortable and providing easy access to the sword.
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Post by Draven on Jan 12, 2015 4:11:56 GMT
I like the idea of the scabbard that can be worn vertically or horizontally - quite practical, it would seem! Personally I find scabbards tight to the body rather uncomfortable, but I understand your reasoning all the same - they certainly allow for a very quick one handed draw, which a free hanging scabbard might not.
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Post by justin520 on Jan 12, 2015 4:14:05 GMT
I love belt wear and I like it on some sort of dangling ring system, I also prefer shorter swords though.
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Post by ineffableone on Jan 12, 2015 5:18:07 GMT
Well a graphic to help show different types might help this thread a bit.  My personal preference is for A, B, D, CH styles for one simple reason. The belt is part of the scabbard, and so they can't get separated. With these styles you can wrap the belt around the scabbard and have it with your sword ready to put on. I have actually considered turning my VA Malatesta's scabbard into a D style suspension. As the 3 point it comes with can be a bit annoying to remove. Not to mention the belt is rather skinny which makes it cut into my waist a bit. Something a bit wider would be preferable for me. |
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Post by Draven on Jan 12, 2015 6:09:52 GMT
Findlithui, I'd seen yours before - I like the idea of using the POB to your advantage!
ineffableone, you're right I should have posted examples. Good point on the belt and scabbard being one also - that's something I hadn't thought of. I just don't like the sword being held rigidly - maybe I ought to try one of those double-wrap belts I've been seeing.
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Post by MOK on Jan 12, 2015 13:21:02 GMT
Well a graphic to help show different types might help this thread a bit. My personal preference is for A, B, D, CH styles for one simple reason. The belt is part of the scabbard, and so they can't get separated. With these styles you can wrap the belt around the scabbard and have it with your sword ready to put on. I have actually considered turning my VA Malatesta's scabbard into a D style suspension. As the 3 point it comes with can be a bit annoying to remove. Not to mention the belt is rather skinny which makes it cut into my waist a bit. Something a bit wider would be preferable for me. I think, instead of an early medieval integral belt, simply tying the belt around the scabbard like this would be more appropriate for the Malatesta:   Also easier to make, you just need an extra long belt. :) You can see several examples from period artwork (sixteen by my quick count) and a modern reproduction by Sean Flynt in this thread on myArmoury. |
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Post by Huer-Ta on Jan 12, 2015 13:46:00 GMT
Probably not the most popular, but I like "E" from that chart the best. I've made a couple of scabbards using that system and the blade is actually pretty secure at my hip with hardly any extraneous movement when I move around.
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ShooterMike
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Post by ShooterMike on Jan 12, 2015 14:28:05 GMT
Version D in ineffableone's illustrations, and the single point shown in MOK's thread are by far the most common ones I use. I like those two very well for swords they are appropriate for.
That's version D in my avatar SnowSwordsman. |
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Post by Gakuseinozen on Jan 12, 2015 19:09:37 GMT
I've only had swords with type D and type F (two point suspension). Both have their pros and cons. Type D is good because it holds the sword at a bit of a forward angle so its easier to draw (more so than type A or B). The angle is still pretty vertical though, so I can see how it would be a problem for longer swords. A big plus on type D is the lack of movement if you're walking (or running, I suppose) with it; the whole thing is pretty secure and doesn't wobble. Type F seems better for longer swords since the angle is more tilted forward. And even if the angle isn't enough to get your sword out, you can just grab the scabbard with your off-hand and position it however you like before drawing because its not an integral part of the belt as in type D. I also like that I can sit down with this type of suspension  The con to this type seems to be the extent to which the whole thing moves around as you walk; since the scabbard is free hanging instead of part of the belt, it tends to wave back and forth behind you as you walk. I can't imagine running with this type of setup. |
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Post by Draven on Jan 12, 2015 19:30:23 GMT
Interesting, I expected more support for two-point tbh as I think that's what I see most often!
I suppose I'm somewhat paralyzed by choices; so many options, so little time (and money). Still finding it hard to shift away from baldrics - they're just so easy to wear!
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Post by MOK on Jan 12, 2015 20:45:53 GMT
I really like baldrics in theory, but a belt has almost always turned out to be more comfortable and convenient to wear in practice. Not least because I almost always end up wanting to wear a belt on top of the baldric, anyway, to keep it from swinging and flopping all over the place as I move around.  One reason I love that one-point knotted belt system I posted is just its ingenious simplicity. The less attachment points there are the easier the rig is to adjust to fit your person, for one thing, and this is as easy as you could possibly make it - just tighten the belt to suit your waist (and the height and angle you want the sword to rest at) and you're done! Plus it looks all roguish and badass, slung low at your hip at a jaunty angle like that, and it's a whole lot more secure and stable in practice than you'd think at first glance, too. Just the sheer elegance of the thing is in itself attractive, to me. |
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Post by ineffableone on Jan 13, 2015 0:49:52 GMT
Interesting, I expected more support for two-point tbh as I think that's what I see most often! I suppose I'm somewhat paralyzed by choices; so many options, so little time (and money). Still finding it hard to shift away from baldrics - they're just so easy to wear! There are actually more styles than the ones in the graphic I posted. But I didn't want to post a ton of different graphics many duplicating a few of the ones in others. If I remember correct that graphic is from Lutel and is their suspension systems. Thanks for the suggestion MOK, I might have to try that one out. Easy enough to try and if I don't like it go back to the original suspension or make another one. |
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Post by Draven on Jan 14, 2015 6:03:13 GMT
MOK, I don't disagree, that is certainly a problem with Baldrics, though I'm not sure it's much better with the sword dangling from straps hung from a belt.
I was watching LOTR the other day and Boromir's sword belt jumped out at me. It is two point like the integral belts (namely one point right up at the mouth of the scabbard towards the users front and one a little lower down towards the user's back) but rather than being belted tight to the body, it seems to have rings on the scabbard and links on the belt connecting them. I figure this would allows the scabbard to rotate more freely while being tight enough to the person to allow a good, quick draw.
For my part, I've come to something of a compromise - it will be two-point, hanging from the belt, but the first strap (the one closest the mouth of the scabbard) will be short and of fixed length, holding that end of the scabbard very close to the belt - the other will be longer and adjustable with a buckle. I think that will eliminate a lot of bouncing and movement in the draw without being too rigid for my comfort.
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LiamBoyle
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Post by LiamBoyle on Jan 14, 2015 15:20:54 GMT
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Post by Draven on Jan 15, 2015 5:06:00 GMT
Interesting, I'm not really sure how they hang. Is it vertical or diagonal? |
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LiamBoyle
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Post by LiamBoyle on Jan 15, 2015 11:24:23 GMT
Near the top of a Jian scabbard you have two rings. You run a loop of cord between the rings and that more or less becomes your belt slide. Hook the cord onto your belt hook and you now have a suspension with one point of contact on the belt and two on the scabbard.
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Post by Draven on Jan 15, 2015 18:31:29 GMT
Simple and elegant, I like it  |
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Post by MOK on Jan 15, 2015 22:42:06 GMT
Just as a side note, the Chinese belt hook is, of course, very similar to the way Western smallswords were commonly worn.
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LiamBoyle
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Post by LiamBoyle on Jan 15, 2015 23:52:53 GMT
That it is. The only odd thing is going by artwork the Dao swords tended to be worn with the hilt facing the rear. I'll have to open up the laptop and see if I can't find a good image.
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The con to this type seems to be the extent to which the whole thing moves around as you walk; since the scabbard is free hanging instead of part of the belt, it tends to wave back and forth behind you as you walk. I can't imagine running with this type of setup.
