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Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 12, 2015 4:59:52 GMT
I believe it. It is really easy to miss the fake sanmai until you polish a couple of layers off.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 12, 2015 5:15:04 GMT
Okay, here are the pictures to the same scale, normal light. Same camera, no UV Laser. These are the middle two pictures near tip, opposite sides. All pictures were shot in macro lens mode, so there is a lot of zoom. Angle and light optimized to see the hada and not the hamon.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Aug 12, 2015 6:03:17 GMT
Thanks addertooth. So without the macro and lighting, did this blade look like it was laminated? Did it look like it was made to look like it was laminated? Just trying to find out if it was the wrong blade shipped or if it was trying to be passed off as something it wasn't. Seems this same thing has happened before.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Aug 12, 2015 12:13:33 GMT
RS is going to say it was a mistake and will scurry around to send a new blade out. I wouldn't be surprised if these sellers from LONGQUAN intentionally slip cheap fakes every now and then to boost up profits. And I don't mean just the laminated blades, I mean using a low grade steel and calling it 1095 or T10 or L6. "ebay buyers will never know the difference". Let's see how the "Customer Service" is and how long it takes to replace the blade. I didn't follow-up my story with the poor "Customer Service" I got from RS. Hopefully it won't be as aggravating for addertooth.
addertooth, I'm sorry to hear that you didn't get the blade you expected but I do applaud your attempts and your scientific approach to determine the structure of the blade. Could you tell us again if you (1) informed RS that you were a sword forum member and would post a review of their product? (2) If you had an email conversation with Gong (owner of Ryanswords) about the sword you ordered BEFORE you received the sword? I'd like to know if Gong thought of you as a "typical ebay buyer" or one that knows about laminated blades.
I had plenty of email conversations with Gong about laminated blades, I had set expectations, and I still received a fake laminated blade. But I didn't tell him I was a forum member. And Gong could not replace the faked sanmai blade because he did not have a source for sanmai/hon sanmai blades.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 12, 2015 12:18:04 GMT
Due to the edge being polished, to the naked eye (without macro lens magnification), it looked like the Damascus ended before the edge. i.e. it looked like a lamination. With UV plus magnification it is clear it is not. I sent Ryan swords a letter (which I gave the gist of it earlier). They responded with they would contact their factory. I am taking the higher ground and coming from the position a simple mistake was made on the factory floor. You get more flies with honey than you do vinegar (although, who wants flies?).
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Aug 12, 2015 12:22:18 GMT
addertooth, the blades are signed and also stamped with a serial number on the tang. Can you send a pic of both sides of the tang to Gong for a translation or an explanation of what it means?
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 12, 2015 12:48:39 GMT
RS is going to say it was a mistake and will scurry around to send a new blade out. I wouldn't be surprised if these sellers from LONGQUAN intentionally slip cheap fakes every now and then to boost up profits. And I don't mean just the laminated blades, I mean using a low grade steel and calling it 1095 or T10 or L6. "ebay buyers will never know the difference". Let's see how the "Customer Service" is and how long it takes to replace the blade. I didn't follow-up my story with the poor "Customer Service" I got from RS. Hopefully it won't be as aggravating for addertooth. addertooth, I'm sorry to hear that you didn't get the blade you expected but I do applaud your attempts and your scientific approach to determine the structure of the blade. Could you tell us again if you (1) informed RS that you were a sword forum member and would post a review of their product? (2) If you had an email conversation with Gong (owner of Ryanswords) about the sword you ordered BEFORE you received the sword? I'd like to know if Gong thought of you as a "typical ebay buyer" or one that knows about laminated blades. I had plenty of email conversations with Gong about laminated blades, I had set expectations, and I still received a fake laminated blade. But I didn't tell him I was a forum member. And Gong could not replace the faked sanmai blade because he did not have a source for sanmai/hon sanmai blades.************************************************************************************************** Originally I wanted all the Ebay blades received as a "single blind study" (the vendor unaware they would be analyzed and reviewed). However, after the first extremely disappointing shipment I got worried, after all, I am going to own these swords and didn't want total junk. All subsequent blades were ordered with hishigami (to give the vendor a basic clue I knew a bit more than some purchasers). The only vendor (which I haven't ordered from yet) which was specifically asked about laminations is St-Nihonto. Except for the first vendor, all of the vendors were thanked at shipment time, and told "can't wait to get the sword and do an online review of their product". The only vendor warned in advance of the review is Swordsmith668. The vendors ordered from at this point are Kaze99, Lyueswords (2), Ninja-Katana and Swordsmith668. A hanwei Raptor blade was also ordered as a "standard" which was in the same general price range. A second Lyuesword katana was ordered as a "confirmation" blade; the first one which arrived I was very pleased with, and I wanted to know if it was a fluke, or business as usual. I struggle with wanting to do a fair measure of what these sellers produce, and not getting stuck with swords which are junk end-to-end. One vendor has already had his sword(s) sent back (and I got a full refund after I sent him detailed photos showing double drilled handles, gaps between the handles and the tsuba, bad wrap, and non-laminated blades).
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 12, 2015 12:53:13 GMT
addertooth, the blades are signed and also stamped with a serial number on the tang. Can you send a pic of both sides of the tang to Gong for a translation or an explanation of what it means? I always hold off on removing the handles (which could potentially damage something in the removal) until it is determined if the sword will go back for a refund. The Ryan Sword will not have the handle removed at this time. As for asking for a translation, I am a bit un-trusting. It will take a bit of labor, but I will translate it myself when the time comes.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 12, 2015 13:33:03 GMT
I had plenty of email conversations with Gong about laminated blades, I had set expectations, and I still received a fake laminated blade. But I didn't tell him I was a forum member. And Gong could not replace the faked sanmai blade because he did not have a source for sanmai/hon sanmai blades. *************************************************************************************************** Did Gong have you ship back the mortal remains of your sword and give you a refund when he was unable to provide you with a SanMai blade? Or, did he let you keep the pieces and simply give you a refund? As I recall you sliced your blade in half and did an etch on the ends to reveal the full Damascus structure. My gut says if he can't provide a real SanMai blade, the odds of him being able to provide a real Shihozume blade is even less. As you know (via private messages), I have a way to determine internal structure of blades, and not just the surface structure. I now chuckle when I look at the certificate which arrived with the sword that proudly declares "clay tempered Shihozume" and "1095 carbon steel+Folded steel+iron".
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Aug 12, 2015 14:06:25 GMT
I had plenty of email conversations with Gong about laminated blades, I had set expectations, and I still received a fake laminated blade. But I didn't tell him I was a forum member. And Gong could not replace the faked sanmai blade because he did not have a source for sanmai/hon sanmai blades. *************************************************************************************************** Did Gong have you ship back the mortal remains of your sword and give you a refund when he was unable to provide you with a SanMai blade? Or, did he let you keep the pieces and simply give you a refund? As I recall you sliced your blade in half and did an etch on the ends to reveal the full Damascus structure. My gut says if he can't provide a real SanMai blade, the odds of him being able to provide a real Shihozume blade is even less. As you know (via private messages), I have a way to determine internal structure of blades, and not just the surface structure. I now chuckle when I look at the certificate which arrived with the sword that proudly declares "clay tempered Shihozume" and "1095 carbon steel+Folded steel+iron".
Gong did refund my money. He also asked for the sword and saya back. He allowed me to keep the "pieces" and furniture when I explained that the sword was badly rusted and cut into two pieces and heavily etched. He also promised me a real sanmai blade, and I clarified that since he had send me the furniture that I only deserved a nude blade and nothing else. BUT, after several months I never got the sanmai blade. Why? Perhaps because at the time he did not have a source. Yet on his website and on ebay there are many offerings of RS sanmai/hon sanmai. Go figure. .
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 12, 2015 14:22:27 GMT
The last sword I sent back to China was a real pain. I had to translate the vendors address to Chinese from English (so the Chinese postman could actually deliver the sword(s) back to them). Then the address had to be written by hand on the shipping label at the post office, as they did not want to provide me blank mailing forms (each form has a unique serial/tracking number). I had to cover half the shipping cost back. If RS wants me to send this one back, I want him to do the shipping label and issue a "call" (shipping request from the distant end). I will also want him to pay all the shipping cost, the "error" on the vendor's part should not be my financial burden. Obviously, the best solution would be for him to send me a bare Shihozume blade which is undrilled. It seems unlikely at this point he will be able to provide this request, but fingers are crossed.
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 12, 2015 14:36:41 GMT
Man, you're taking such a big hit for the community and providing us with so much useful info. Kudos my friend.
One thing: perhaps you could try to get a Ronin Katana honsanmai to see if its laminations are real? All indications are yes, they are, which is one niche in the market I think RK has, but you never know. I'd love to own a laminated RK in the future too (Josh's customized one was crazy beautiful).
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 12, 2015 14:42:26 GMT
What is the price of the RK honsanmai? If it is too pricy, I will have to pass. As a blanket offer, if someone ships me any sword, I will be happy to do the analysis.
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 12, 2015 14:45:33 GMT
Around $600 unmounted I think? Maybe less. A second hand would serve the same purpose and be cheaper too.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Aug 12, 2015 14:48:42 GMT
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Post by LemuelTheLemur on Aug 12, 2015 15:05:53 GMT
You could email chris at RK directly and ask if he has any factory seconds for a discounted. They usually go on sale every Feb to March
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 12, 2015 15:12:37 GMT
Ouch, 825 to 875 complete. I don't mind spending 300-500 to settle curiosity, but the Ronin price is a bit bigger than my curiosity.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 12, 2015 19:23:18 GMT
Well, the "ninja-katana" reseller swords came in this morning (matched SanMai Katana and Wakizashi). Just enough time on my lunch break to unpack them. I looked at the edge area of these SanMai swords and got a mighty uncomfortable feeling. At first blush, it appeared the Damascus ran to the edge. They will get a detailed examination tonight. Both tsuka did have the hishigami which was paid for. Ito is stupid tight (which is preferred). The tsuka have a nice narrow waist, but the Fuchi and Kashira appear somewhat oversized for the tsuka wood core. I hope this is not a sign of the dreaded rat-tail tang, but the tsuka are two mekugi. When I post the comparative review, I am afraid Cottontail customs will cringe so badly he will throw a disc out in his back at some of the Tsuka pictures of the various swords.
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Post by zabazagobo on Aug 12, 2015 22:32:55 GMT
Addertooth, I'm really looking forward to the full comparison. You really have provided a treasure trove of data to this forum regarding various ebay sellers and will likely, when the dust has cleared, have saved at the very least a couple dozen interested individuals from wasting their money on fraudulent sellers. I really hope there might be some way to use this data to put an end to all the b.s. you see on ebay from sellers with listing products that are more or less scams for the inexperienced.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 13, 2015 0:36:37 GMT
Thanks Zabazagobo, that was the goal. Hopefully the review will keep a newbie from overspending for a fancy lamination which proves to only be a maru Damascus blade (which is a couple hundred dollars cheaper). Then the vendor polishes the edge to make it look non-Damascus, which can be hard to catch. As for the two that arrived today, which I suspect are maru and not sanmai (as advertised), they are likely keepers as long as they are full tang. Their price was reasonable, to where a lamination premium wasn't paid for the set. (update) I just checked and they are not rat-tail, they are full tang so that concern is past. Probably the other thing that annoys me on the set is the cosmetic kissaki. A cosmetic kissaki (where they change the "polish" grind angle 90 degrees at the tip to create a visual line, but don't have an actual change in geometric angle for the tip), can be a hallmark of a cheaper sword. A cosmetic kissaki may fool the eyes, but never the fingers.
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