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Post by danmasamori on Sept 8, 2015 13:59:29 GMT
Every day this place turns more like being SFI. superiority complexes, "jumping up someone's a**hole" rather then offering knowledge or discussion in a friendly intiutive manner. I don't particpate in discussions much at all over at SFI anymore, one senior forumite comes to mind immediately as being a complete pompous a**.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Sept 8, 2015 14:23:19 GMT
This evolution is hard to avoid. When I knew (virtually) nothing, my expectations/standards were on par with my knowledge. Almost everyone here learns a great deal by reading these postings. As we learn basic things such as "ito should be tight and not wander while holding the sword" or "yokote (if present) should be crisp and straight" or "most ito sold as silk are actually rayon-rayon blend" our expectations tend to grow as well. Swords which previously satisfied us are now viewed in a more critical light. There is an inherent urge/behavior to prevent other novices from stepping into the same pitfalls which we experienced. I actually believe a lot of the "sword bashing" behavior is largely based upon the desire to protect others, and not a simple expression of ugliness.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Sept 8, 2015 14:36:25 GMT
It's ok to like the higher end stuff, but some people can't afford them and ever will be able to. Guide them to the better lower end swords. If we don't we will just become SFI and die.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 8, 2015 14:37:14 GMT
I think that seems fair. I for one care about value for the dollar you put in. A sword may be of higher quality but cost a disproportionate amount. I 'bash' higher end sword that cost more than they're worth to me even if side by side, ignoring price, they are better crafted. Same with cheap. If I spend $100 and I get a $50 sword, I'm not happy. On the flip side, if I spend $200 and get at least close to that, I'm happy. I warn people of kaneie because I don't feel they are worth it despite being mostly well made swords. I say you can get a good deal out ebay forges and hanwei because if you know what to look for, you can get some bang for your buck.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 8, 2015 14:47:50 GMT
I'd like to think that we're a good, positive community here. Any and all reviews/opinions of ours are only to help with recommendations and purchases of others. I'd like to think that none of us are "bashing" anything, per se, but I know I can't say that with 100% certainty because I'm sure at one point or another we've all done do, even if it was minor or unintentional. Sure, China has both some good replicas and some bad, and that's why we're here - to try and sort out what's good and what's not.
After all, this is nothing but a collection of opinions, is it not? I think we're all just a group of passionate sword enthusiasts, from the die-hard Zombiests to casual collector/practitioner to the traditional Nihonto collectors/appreciators. We're all just a bunch of guys with a love of things that go pokkie-stabbie.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 8, 2015 15:15:26 GMT
Well said, but don't forget the swoosh. I know I have learned a lot from this thread alone and I will be using it to give recommendations in the future. I came here because this place seemed to be the best place for my interest. I initially took some comments as aggressive when I first started here, as one who has spent time online is apt to, but I quickly realized this was wrong. Most of the time people here are kind and helpful. I enjoy being apart of this forum. The conversations like this especially. I enjoy others like messenger's nihonto thread but I lack the knowledge to add input.
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Post by Tavx on Sept 8, 2015 17:09:34 GMT
I really enjoy reading posts here, and see very few troubling posts, though I may be responsible for a few (unintentionally!)
There are many well versed and knowledgeable forumites that have a lot to offer and many interesting and in-depth posts. I like to delve in to interests with both feet, and there is so much that goes into the lowly $100 chinatana let alone the high end blades in the global market, that I don't think I'll ever get bored. Chinese forges produce as cheaply as possible which is to be expected, and knowing what to look for is important to me. I like seeing people discuss the minutia and 'nit-pick' over things like blade geometry honing processes, it's interesting to me and insightful. I know I'm inexperienced and may not know what I'm talking about, but discussion can lead to enlightenment.
That is why I come here, and have felt this a welcoming forum, even though I don't get offended easily =)
Anyhow, as far as Ryanswords goes, there are much worse options for an Entry Level blade than Ryanswords, and they at least have skilled craftsmen making their swords, even if they can lean towards profit making skills with their higher end stuff. All companies care about is profit, some make it by quality, some make it by quantity, some make it by questionable business practices, but they all make it somehow. Ryanswords has a good product sometimes, and I have considered buying a second sword from them even after my first was very disappointing after learning more about the first sword I bought from them, but I wouldn't buy anything technical like a laminated blade. A 1060 beater though? Sure!
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Post by danmasamori on Sept 8, 2015 19:57:30 GMT
After studying JSA for nearly 10 years, I I joined up here back in 08', or 09'? (crap, I can't remember)...
What I found was that after studying for 10 years, I knew pretty much nothing about the sword itself, it can be pretty humbling.
I think we just need to retain that humble nature, regardless of knowledge or skill....
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 8, 2015 20:22:28 GMT
Sounds good to me Dan. I know that I can hold a sword and say it feels off but I think I'd have a hard time pinpointing exact flaws in a given sword's manufacturing process and what should have been done instead all the time. I can tell some things but I'm neither a smith nor a sword scholar (I'm learning though). I think it is important to keep competence in mind.
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Mikeeman
Member
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Post by Mikeeman on Sept 8, 2015 22:11:08 GMT
As far as the belt grinder thing, typically the initial grind on such a tool is done BEFORE heat treatment. The steel is typically softer, easier to grind, and nothing will be ruined. After the power tools and possibly a light hand honing on a very rough grit stone, THEN they are heat treated. At least, in most of what I have done and watched.
Pay Holg no mind. He likes to butt in and cause trouble where it is unwarranted. We have had at it several times. A sword that can cut something may not be a good sword. I could crudely grind a piece of 1018 I got from Home Depot too look like a katana. That doesn't mean it's good. Finer details is almost directly related to the attention and care put in to the sword. Which is why we are so picky about the little things.
That leads directly in to quality vs price. Like was mentioned before, you can have a $500 sword that cuts just fine. You can also have a $38 sword that cuts just fine. That does not mean they are equal or worth their price. The $500 sword might outcut the $38 sword, but it may be poorly put together. Or perhaps you are cutting something that the sword was not meant to cut. It's all related to what you get for what you pay. And the whole point of me going off about some of these blades is that a lot of times, you are paying anywhere from $300-$500 for a sword that won't cut any better than a $100 sword and is even more poorly put together.
The arguing in this place has increased. That is correct. But that is almost always related to an influx of new members. Several of which are stubborn, don't know what to look for, or are just straight up trolls. Especially when you get the ones that have watched too much anime and don't have realistic expectations of real swords, or ones that just flat out have no knowledge of what they bought and think because they went out and chopped down a few trees that it must be good. All of those things combined always results in the forum becoming more violent and argumentative. It's just a cycle that we go through, here.
As to Drigger's comment about some people not being able to afford higher end things, of course not! But that's why we're here. To advise newer members as to the best blade in their price range for their application. That seems to always have been the purpose of this forum.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 8, 2015 22:31:02 GMT
Hope you're not talking about me, lol. Though I'm new the forum, I myself have never had any unrealistic expectations of real swords, like those people who are, "Hurr, a real katana can cut a tank in half, you noob." and such idiots.
As far as quality vs. price goes, I fullheartedly agree, finding the highest quality for the lowest price is, I think, the mission of many here, one that is still ongoing. Whether or not that best ratio will come from Hanwei, Ronin, Musashi, Munetoshi, Huawei, St-Nihonto, or even somewhere else remains to be seen - we simply don't know yet.
And maybe it's just me, but I don't mind a good discussion, even if it's slightly heated. A full-on argument is another thing entirely, but I think that a healthy discussion is helpful and good for teaching and learning, respectively. (As long as that discussion stays within reason, of course - nothing TOO intense or emotion-driven.)
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 8, 2015 22:34:01 GMT
Thanks for the insight. I wonder what happened to that bugei/hanwei then. I agree on quality vs price. I think we should aim for a similar quality to price ratio in most budgets (until recently a $100 sword seemed like a huge investment) but it doesn't seem to progress as linearly as I'd like. There especially seems to be an area where you get a bad mix of price an quality. Just a little lower and you'd be in budget swords, a little higher and you can get into entry level stuff that's great quality. As for discussion, I like to debate in a rational sense. A discussion with "I agree sir" and no new information would be dull.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 22:35:38 GMT
Pay Holg no mind. He likes to butt in and cause trouble where it is unwarranted. We have had at it several times. Again you are attacking me...had nothing posted in YOUR face.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Sept 8, 2015 22:36:54 GMT
Hopefully you don't take this the wrong way, but we DO know. This forum has been around for quite some time and has reviewed many, many Japanese styled swords. All with a followable improvement, or lack there of. And the ones noted as "gimmicky" have been pointed out. Lots of times.
Also, every sword type/brand serves it's purpose. Or doesn't. It all depends on what you're wanting a sword for or how you will be using it.
You are right. A good debate is certainly most entertaining. And I'm very fond of intelligent debate of things I am well versed in. One of my most favorite things to do, but not when discussing things with someone who just wants to cuss me out or something along those lines. I certainly don't mind admitting I'm wrong at the end of a good discussion.
No, I wasn't pointing at you, in particular. You seem very open to discussion and to learn new things. Others... Maybe not.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Sept 8, 2015 22:38:24 GMT
Pay Holg no mind. He likes to butt in and cause trouble where it is unwarranted. We have had at it several times. Again you are attacking me...had nothing posted in YOUR face. Is this a thing we can make happen? It sure is hard to explain things to those that are eager to learn with this guy around.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Sept 8, 2015 22:38:50 GMT
I think this has been an excellent thread and obviously successful at 30 pages long. I found nothing offensive and found no evidence of snobbery or bashing but instead a lot of valid and enlightening information pertaining to affordable production swords. In fact, the only unfortunate element here has been the rather rude and irrelevant interruptions. I haven't been around much these days because of the small troll population and their incessant negativity wearing on me but I occasionally still read some of the threads. If you feel like having some additional conversations about katana in a different format, I invite you to join our fb group "Kompletely Katana". There are a bunch of really nice people there who are similarly passionate about what we buy and collect and use. Keep up the great conversation
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Mikeeman
Member
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Post by Mikeeman on Sept 8, 2015 22:40:44 GMT
Thank the gods, Josh is back!
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 8, 2015 22:40:30 GMT
Glad to hear that, but I really hope that everyone can just keep things civil - I don't much like it when someone is attacked, or even if someone is attacking. I can't profess to know whatever happened in the past, so I won't take sides, but I just hope that, in this particular instance (Mike and Hulg), you two can put aside whatever might have happened between you two in the past and just move on.
I really think that's the best thing, both for you and everyone.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 8, 2015 22:43:48 GMT
Thanks Josh. It's a shame they wear on you. I've learned a lot from the information you've shared on here and other forums. I went from some guy who swings swords to a guy who can appreciate the effort and craftsmanship that goes into that sharpened metal stick I've been swinging. I feel happier to be a martial artist now than when I was ignoring the sword itself. Hopefully the trolls will leave you alone and we can hear from you again.
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Post by danmasamori on Sept 8, 2015 22:56:24 GMT
I think this has been an excellent thread and obviously successful at 30 pages long. I found nothing offensive and found no evidence of snobbery or bashing but instead a lot of valid and enlightening information pertaining to affordable production swords. In fact, the only unfortunate element here has been the rather rude and irrelevant interruptions. I haven't been around much these days because of the small troll population and their incessant negativity wearing on me but I occasionally still read some of the threads. If you feel like having some additional conversations about katana in a different format, I invite you to join our fb group "Kompletely Katana". There are a bunch of really nice people there who are similarly passionate about what we buy and collect and use. Keep up the great conversation :) Was wondering why you hadn't been as active anymore Josh. I must have missed alot of BS lately....
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