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Post by Kirin on Jan 7, 2015 3:43:18 GMT
From the numbers, the niku difference also seems to be only .4 mm at most difference. Am I missing something? I think you might be confusing blade thickness with niku, they are different. I've also noted that there was more niku on the no hi blade I tested than the one with hi. I don't know if they were the same model or not and I don't think the no hi I used is available in the US yet. -Josh You are right. The thickness of the blade does not always mean more niku. Generally, I thought that if it is thicker, it would have more niku. Had to read www.bugei.com/niku.html again. I did find out that most of Samurai Workshop's blades are custom/unique. I had originally thought that they were more of a Bugei with set models. This makes it a tad interesting on whether I should pull the trigger on a certain model or roll the dice and wait for another batch to show up.
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Post by jam on Jan 7, 2015 11:43:47 GMT
Hi Kirin This is also my first post so "hi!" to everyone else too. Great forum. With regards to your questions on polish, blade weights and bohi, maybe I can provide a different view on this, from a martial arts perspective. I say from this perspective to differentiate it from a collector's perspective. The two are not mutually exclusive, of course, but collecting unnecessary weapons is either explicitly contrary to some koryu, or is at the very least absent from the mindset of many of the old schools. So the two main reasons for owning a japanese sword can be seperated, for the purposes of this conversation at least. Also, I would add that I am not a bad-$emprini martial artist. I do understand the mindset to a certain extent. The first point to understand is that a specific length of sword blade is an absolute must in any school or dojo that has iai in the curriculum. So a manufacturer needs to offer their range in quite small increments from 2.3 shaku to 2.6 shaku. Once a student has settled on the length that suits them for iai, they will tend to carry that length on to the rest their sword equipment, even if it is solely for tameshigiri use. The student will have been using a blunt sword, of their appropriate length, for many years by this stage so certain movements will be ingrained. It doesn't take very long to find out that with many manufacturers this is not the case. Only some offer blades graded according to length. Swords polished up for aesthetic purposes is beyond what is necessary for iai, for iai the sword should be razor sharp to it's cutting area at least, swords can be polished to increase the hamon, which is nice on an iai shinken, but a mirror polish is not necessary. This is what is meant by the martial arts polish offered by kaneie (for example) IMO. It is also somewhat outside the mindset of koryu to have a blade all shiny or polished for display, as sword blades are not for displaying. I have heard anecdotes that mirror polish is better for tameshigiri, so that may be a consideration, as a martial artist will not care if the tameshigiri sword gets scratched. Most advanced sword martial artists will own a blunt iai, a very well balanced shinken for iai and a tameshigiri sword which will be somewhat heavier and ideally the correct length so it can also be used for iai. For tameshigiri there are two shools-of-thought. Some schools concentrate heavily on it, and cutting the object is apparently the primary objective. Other (most IME) schools use it to augment their kenjutsu and/or iai. In the latter, it is of no use successfully cutting the object if the swordsman has to jack back the sword to generate enough power to cut successfully, or after the cut is hopelessly exposed. In these (most) schools' use of tameshigiri the cut must come from a realistic kamae and must end in a realistic kamae. Bear in mind then that if the cut has to be stopped maximum 10 inches after the target, or the swordsman should at least have the ability to stop the sword there if going for a second cut immediately, the weight of the sword becomes an issue. Too heavy often results in poor kamae. It is incorrect therefore to generalise that heavier swords suit heavy target tameshigiri per se IMO. They do, but not if using the sword results in poor kamae, in these cases the swordsman needs to improve before moving onto the heavier target and maybe a heavier sword, and will in fact ultimately reach a limit where only improvements in technique will improve cutting potential. Bohi is partially covered in the previous paragraph, as it reduces the weight of a sword, especially the longer swords used by longer armed people. Whether it reduces a sword's strength, or even increases it, has been debated theoretically many times. There is little evidence either way that I’m aware of. A good bohi produces a sound when a cut is aligned correctly, which is of great use to a martial artist practicing iai or kata alone. It also reduces the weight of a blade which is a consideration in certain schools where lighter blades are preferred due to their fighting style. So I suppose that the basics are, if you want to display your sword, and it is for that purpose alone, then pick what you like. If it is for toyama ryu tameshigiri, or a self-made cutting programme where there is a bias towards the cutting being tested rather than fighting skills, then pick an appropriately bladed weapon, as heavy as necessary to cut successfully with less thought to perfecting techniques beyond the exercise of cutting itself. There are generally different considerations for this type of sword and this is probably the use that the majority of practical swords are put to, I would say. It is a bona fide use, and there is lots of great advice on this forum regarding these types of swords. Whether it gets scratched or how it looks when scratched is not a consideration, I would suggest, for this type of sword. If it is for koryu martial arts, or modern iaido, then there are a lot of considerations that need to be assessed knowledgeably including determining your correct sword length. All these considerations are vastly more important than the appearance of the blade. Kaneie offer the best price/performance ratio in this arena imo. Sorry to go on, especially for my first post, probably should have posted on some other matter. No offence intended if caused.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2015 14:10:48 GMT
Great first post! Very useful explanations of the different perspectives of sword use and what's important in each. Thanks!
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Post by jam on Jan 7, 2015 15:08:10 GMT
Thanks. God knows what the forum did to the formatting, I suppose I will get used to it.
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Post by Kirin on Jan 7, 2015 20:24:51 GMT
Thanks for the informative reply Jam. No offense taken at all.
I rather get all the opinion/information upfront than having the Socractic method at times.
Your reply did restate the general consensus of the martial artists I have trained with. Although it may be neat to have a nice arsenal to choose from, most have their usual/favorite katana to train and cut with.
The only variation I did generally see is if heavy duty cutting such as bamboo is involved then some designs may be a bit more fragile/don't want to risk chipping the blade.
The hard part about choosing an appropriate weight is generally the lack of ability to find a physical blade to hold in my hands to see what weight would do best. I have gone to my local Japanese sword appreciation club to hold $20,000+ relics that feel light but extremely "live." However, I cannot test cut with those blades.
On the other hand, my senpai prefer a tad heavier blades. I am still trying to figure out the sweet spot on weight although I am more partial to bo-hi for swing alignment. It is quite satisfying to hear the tachikaze while doing proper suburi.
My plan at my current price range is to get a blade close to my ideal of 2.5-2.55 shaku with a bo-hi with a traditional design and hope that the weight is satisfactory. It also seems to be hard to tell how much niku a blade has from online pictures. So far, Kaneie seems to have more quality with a traditional design/style among all the manufacturers I had seen.
The questions with the polish are indeed secondary to the important features both you and I have acknowledged although I have heard that the polish might help on the resistance of the cuts as well.
-K
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Post by jam on Jan 8, 2015 8:41:18 GMT
I Had no idea you trained under a sensei. Sorry.
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Post by Kirin on Jan 8, 2015 9:28:15 GMT
I Had no idea you trained under a sensei. Sorry. I don't see why you needed to apologize. I think its great reading about information that reinforces or validates what you had been already taught. Your information was given in an informative non-condescending manner. If anything, it helps give others who may not have trained under a formal art a better perspective on using swords as a martial artist. I appreciate having people of all different sword experiences give advice on my limited technical sword knowledge. Knowing how to use a sword and knowing about all the features of a sword are related but also different areas of vast knowledge. -K
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Post by jam on Jan 8, 2015 13:20:28 GMT
I Had no idea you trained under a sensei. Sorry. I don't see why you needed to apologize. I think its great reading about information that reinforces or validates what you had been already taught. Your information was given in an informative non-condescending manner. If anything, it helps give others who may not have trained under a formal art a better perspective on using swords as a martial artist. I appreciate having people of all different sword experiences give advice on my limited technical sword knowledge. Knowing how to use a sword and knowing about all the features of a sword are related but also different areas of vast knowledge. -K All your plans expressed in this thread sound perfectly reasonable to me. I perform some of my training with 2.45 shaku Kaneie okuden sword, with bohi, and it is very well balanced. I also use a 2.45 japanese iaito when in the dojo (safety) and balance-wise they are very similar. The steel sword does have a more rigid feel to it of course. The tachikaze is nice and pronounced and still audible at slow speeds. It is let down by a clunky saya IMO and I plan to get a new one made. I would ideally like my shinken saya to replicate my iaito one, which is beautifully elegant, but am unsure if this is wise with a shinken. I will seek advice when I need to.
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Post by Kirin on Jan 9, 2015 7:47:47 GMT
I think it would be a bit rare for sayas to be interchangeable between swords of different models.
I would be quite careful in attempting such a switch. Putting an iaito in a shinken saya might not do much damage but doing the reverse could do some serious damage!
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Post by Google on Jan 10, 2015 0:59:46 GMT
I don't see how it could damage the saya. "If I fits, I sits".
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Post by Kirin on Jan 10, 2015 3:24:00 GMT
Yeah. Testing if it fits with a shinken seems like it might result in some saya damage if it doesn't fit unless you do it quite carefully.
However, I haven't really tried alternating the saya on my swords before. If the swords are the same length and similar build I guess it might work.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 3:55:03 GMT
You don't just ram it in there to see if it fits!
I've tried a few that looked close. I've actually managed to get a nearly ideal fit on a tanto with a neat zebrawood saya I had scavenged for parts. Hack it down to length, do a little shaping to accommodate the habaki, some more sanding to remove the rest of the original finish, a couple buffalo horn parts for accents and something to seal the wood with and we're there.
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Post by Krelian on Jan 10, 2015 4:18:26 GMT
It is let down by a clunky saya IMO and I plan to get a new one made. I would ideally like my shinken saya to replicate my iaito one, which is beautifully elegant, but am unsure if this is wise with a shinken. I will seek advice when I need to. I don't think Jam is saying that he actually wants to use his iaito saya for his shinken. I think he's saying that he wants a new saya made for his shinken that is more elegant (thin? slim?) but perhaps worries that having a skinnier saya leaves less room for error with a bad draw. That's what I got out of it anyway... In any case, I don't really think having a little less saya wood between your shinken and your hand would make much of a difference. A dangerously bad draw is a dangerously bad draw, a couple millimeters of wood won't save your fingers...
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Post by Google on Jan 10, 2015 15:28:41 GMT
I still don't see what's so complicated in carefully checking if the sword fits. That's how they make it in the production world, icluding even Japanese iaito.
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Post by jam on Jan 15, 2015 12:58:14 GMT
It is let down by a clunky saya IMO and I plan to get a new one made. I would ideally like my shinken saya to replicate my iaito one, which is beautifully elegant, but am unsure if this is wise with a shinken. I will seek advice when I need to. I don't think Jam is saying that he actually wants to use his iaito saya for his shinken. I think he's saying that he wants a new saya made for his shinken that is more elegant (thin? slim?) but perhaps worries that having a skinnier saya leaves less room for error with a bad draw. That's what I got out of it anyway... In any case, I don't really think having a little less saya wood between your shinken and your hand would make much of a difference. A dangerously bad draw is a dangerously bad draw, a couple millimeters of wood won't save your fingers... This is correct, I plan to have a new saya made rather than using my iaito saya. What I don't like about the standard kaneie okuden one compared to my iaito saya is that it is noticeably larger on circumference, it is about 70mm longer (even though they are both 2.45 blades) and the ishime finish chips off with minimal contact. It does seem a good fit for the blade though. I don't know if the circumference is something to do with it being a shinken though. I can't really grumble because the sword and fittings seem good value and it is obviously a well made sword for the price.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Jan 15, 2015 13:02:07 GMT
spraying the blades with something like break-free or other silicon spray beforehand will minimize the marks but not eliminate them
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Post by Robert in California on Jan 16, 2015 16:44:51 GMT
Suggestion....buy two katanas. Get that eye-candy expensive sword and use for cutting air and doing kata/forms that would not hurt it. Also get a $200usa mono 1095 or T10 budget katana as a "beater" for your cutting practice. Be like the guy who has a Bentley in the garage but drives a Ford to work. RinC
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2015 19:59:50 GMT
Even better suggestion. Never, ever cut with a katana that has a high polish. It baffles me how it isn't obvious that any slight mark will have ruined hours and hours of work and why you would do that is beyond me. It's up to you though. Just remember if you want that polish back be prepared to spend big bucks just to remove the scratches you put on it by taking it to a damn water bottle.
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Post by Google on Jan 16, 2015 22:29:31 GMT
Why use a sword with hadori polish? Because sometimes it can be such a good sword, it would be a shame not to use it. For Kaneie prices I wouldn't hurt to much to ruin the polish on a good sword.
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Post by Kirin on Jan 17, 2015 7:05:16 GMT
Well after all the input, it seems to be a bit of personal choice if you can only afford one blade.
The three big questions I ask myself is:
Do you want a beauty with a scar?
Or do you have want a general decent looking blade?
What does $500 (the difference between Menkyo and Okuden) mean to you?
After tameshigiri, the scratches will probably be pretty noticeable on just the monouchi if your technique is decent. The hamon looks much more attractive with the Menkyo level polish. You can still admire the polish on the rest of the blade. Although, I have to admit, I have had some stray cuts hit toward the half way point at times.
Otherwise with an Okuden model, it is a blade that covers can look decent and not have scratches be too prevalent.
At least in my school, many of my senpai like just having one blade so that don't need to adjust to different katana.
Furthermore, my sword bag is pretty stretched to the limit, if I keep on getting a single sword for each scenario, I might need to roll a golf bag into the dojo for training soon.
-K
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