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Post by Kirin on Jan 4, 2015 0:38:30 GMT
To SBG Forum,
For those that have performed tameshigiri (test cutting) on traditional targets such as rolled up tatami and bamboo, how has the cutting affected the polish/appearance of your katana?
Since Kaneie has recently been reintroduced back into the USA, I had been considering purchasing one of their katana. Of course, the model with the fittings I like the is still not available in the USA but the other fittings are acceptable. This leads to the question of purchasing the Black Tiger Okuden model compared to the Menkyo models.
How badly will test cutting using a Menkyo model affect the polish of the sword? I know the Okuden model is designed for martial artists with the rougher polish but how badly will the higher end polish deteriorate?
Any information/pictures on the effects of test cutting on polish would be most appreciated.
Sincerely,
K
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Jan 4, 2015 0:54:34 GMT
I have cut plastic bottles, bamboo and kudzu vine with a Kaneie sporting a high level of polish and while there were surface scratches as expected, the kesho hadori hamon polish did not seem to be very affected. You can see details of my test cutting here -Josh Edit - A before pic here are some of the after cutting pics As LGM said below, regular cutting with medium to hard targets such as tatami and bamboo will affect your polish over time or even quickly so if you want a pristine polish to remain pristine, you should not use it for cutting anything but maybe pool noodles.
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Post by Kirin on Jan 4, 2015 1:16:22 GMT
Thanks. I will give the video a watch.
I was curious by the effect on the polish over multiple sessions. I had seen review pictures of before and after single sessions without much damage.
My main concern would be whether the extra money on the higher quality polish be worth it in the end for a JSA practitioner that does tameshigiri once a month or once every few months.
-K
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Jan 4, 2015 1:34:59 GMT
Tameshigiri will eventually scratch your blade, especially if you'll be doing it often. Softer targets like tatami won't really do much to the finish in the short term, but will dull the blade and can mar the finish over time, harder targets like bamboo will scratch the blade much faster - the harder the target, the easier it'll scratch up your sword. IMHO, I would only buy a higher quality polish on a sword that was going to be displayed and/or used for Iai kata only, not for regular tameshigiri use. Just my .02 worth.
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Post by Kirin on Jan 4, 2015 7:17:14 GMT
LG - Thanks for the advice.
Frank - Thanks for the extra high quality pictures. I can really see a bit more of the scratches on the blade.
I think I am leaning toward the Okuden Black Tiger Model. Wished that there were more Okuden level choices and possibly one with a bo-hi but it is better than not having any Kaneie choices in the USA.
As a side question, what are the other comparable high quality katana to a Kaneie that is not a Hanwei? I do favor a more traditional looking katana that comes very close to the Nihonto appearance other than the up-close details like tamahagane. Just wanted to make sure I didn't look over any choices at around the $1000 mark and under.
All of the advice is appreciated.
-K
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Post by Google on Jan 4, 2015 13:50:55 GMT
My Kaneie okuden wasn't affected from cutting very thick bamboo. The okuden are kaneie's answer for tameshigiri, since it's a "working polish". I wouldn't use a light blade (as those with bohi usually are) to cut heavy targets. Other than Kaneie you have Bugei, but I haven't tried them in person.
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Post by Kirin on Jan 5, 2015 3:58:27 GMT
Thanks for information. Do you have any pictures of your okuden after bamboo cutting handy?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2015 13:29:44 GMT
If you cut with it, it will scratch. A rougher finish still scratches, it's just harder to see because of the surface texture. You can kind of think of it like taking brand new tires on the highway. You don't instantly go from 100% to ruined, but it is no longer pristine once you but some wear on it. It isn't like once you start to get a little wear on it that it suddenly becomes invincible, you just don't notice two or three more when there's already a ton on there.
Only you can decide what level of polish is worth it. If you specifically cut with the monouchi, you should have the rest of the blade area to appreciate a relatively untouched polish.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Jan 5, 2015 20:47:59 GMT
I just want to add to my above post and say that many of the lighter, wispier scratches are much harder to see when there isn't a high powered led light shining at an angle as in my pics.
-Josh
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Aikidoka
Member
Monstrous monk in training...
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Post by Aikidoka on Jan 5, 2015 21:08:03 GMT
My experience with tatami cutting has been the same as what LG and FrankTheBunny have said. Here is a recent cutting video where I showed the blade after the cutting session (it is at the beginning of the video, but was made after cutting). From a few feet away, you can't even see the very fine scratches that are on the blade. And I have cut with this katana several times in the past 6 months or so, and have not polished the blade at all. I'll try to take some pictures when I get home that capture the very fine scratches.
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Post by wazikan on Jan 6, 2015 5:45:50 GMT
A katana with no scratches is like a 4x4 with no mud
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Post by wazikan on Jan 6, 2015 5:49:56 GMT
Im looking to get a kaneie sword amd have a longer tsuka on it. But im still not sure what model i will get. I havent seen the janese models yet. Only the katanas sold in the usa
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 6:43:39 GMT
A katana is just another cutting tool, and all cutting tools scratch and wear from use. The harder the cutting materials, the more abrasion. That's why there is a 'working polish' for swords that are used for cutting, finished with a coarser grit that hides scratches better, and fancier polishing jobs for expensive art pieces that you can't bring yourself to cut with that live a pampered life in a display cabinet. Choose a practical level of polish for your intended purpose and you'll be happy
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Post by Kirin on Jan 6, 2015 8:21:46 GMT
Thanks for all of the feedback so far.
If anyone has any pictures of an Okuden with their tameshigiri polish, I would be interested in seeing how well it "hides" the scratches.
After all of this discussion, I think I need to do more research on the different types of polishing and how it is done. Other than that looks shiny like some holographic trading card or as clear as a mirror, my polishing knowledge is basically nil.
Anyone got any good free resources to decipher polishing so I don't need to go on a Google hunt?
-K
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Post by Google on Jan 6, 2015 12:48:42 GMT
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Post by Kirin on Jan 6, 2015 13:47:32 GMT
Nice. I have only cut tatami omote before so I was a tad confused by what was on your blade in the second picture. I thought you would wipe off your blade before pictures! Seems like the natural hamon does stand out quite a bit more with the extra polishing and money. As a side note, does there appear to be more niku on the Okuden model when compared to the Menkyo? I read in one of the prototype guide reviews that there seemed to be a major a difference: www.sword-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21204Do you think that is a difference caused by the polishing or the bo-hi? From my knowledge, I don't think that having a bo-hi would weaken a blade too significantly. Any thoughts?
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Post by Google on Jan 6, 2015 16:34:58 GMT
Nice. I have only cut tatami omote before so I was a tad confused by what was on your blade in the second picture. I thought you would wipe off your blade before pictures! Seems like the natural hamon does stand out quite a bit more with the extra polishing and money. As a side note, does there appear to be more niku on the Okuden model when compared to the Menkyo? I read in one of the prototype guide reviews that there seemed to be a major a difference: www.sword-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21204Do you think that is a difference caused by the polishing or the bo-hi? From my knowledge, I don't think that having a bo-hi would weaken a blade too significantly. Any thoughts? The hadori polish is meant exactly to define and make the hamon stand out better :) My sword is not the Black Tiger that's available in USA, but I was told it's a prototype or something. It features quite a lot of niku, and is very heavy for it's short length. The "beast" in the review you linked is actually my sword! Kaneie do make beefy blades with lots of niku and hadori, but not the ones that sell in the USA at the moment. The difference is in the designated use- those with bohi are usually meant for kata, so they're made lighter and thinner and with bohi. Those usually weigh 900-1000 grams and can cut tatami with good technique, but not bamboo. I think a good weight for an all-rounder (kata, medium cutting and heaby cutting) should be 1200-1300 grams with blade length of 70-74 CM.
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Post by Kirin on Jan 6, 2015 22:36:32 GMT
Do you know what European model your "beast" is?
I have looked through the models at the Samurai Workshop and was curious if it was any one of them? I could take a larger shipping fee hit for a better looking sword than what is available in the USA.
I didn't know that there was a different niku/weight model. I had originally thought most of their Batto were designed in one way while their Okuden/Menkyo was designed in another. From the weight difference of your review, I thought that it was mostly just the difference between bo-hi and no bo-hi with the .3 pound difference.
From the numbers, the niku difference also seems to be only .4 mm at most difference. Am I missing something?
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Post by Google on Jan 6, 2015 23:59:58 GMT
Kaneie doesn't really work in models, I was surprised they offered models in the U.S. Anyhows, I bought the sword from the guy who wrote the review, so I can't compare to that other sword featured. But I did own about 6 Kaneie, and usually the swords without bohi also has more niku. I've owned 3 w\o and 3 with bohi, and those w\o had more niku and slightly thicker and wider. Personally I would love to test a blade with bohi and weight of 1300~ grams, but those are hard to find.
I highly recommend talking with The Samurai Workshop if you want more options than are in the USA.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Jan 7, 2015 0:06:05 GMT
From the numbers, the niku difference also seems to be only .4 mm at most difference. Am I missing something? To find out everything you want to know about Kaneie, I would ask Jeffrey Ching, the owner/operator of The Samurai Workshop, he's the best man to talk to about these swords. I think you might be confusing blade thickness with niku, they are different. I've also noted that there was more niku on the no hi blade I tested than the one with hi. I don't know if they were the same model or not and I don't think the no hi I used is available in the US yet. -Josh
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