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Post by LG Martial Arts on Sept 15, 2014 3:45:51 GMT
So your answer is basically no answer, but rather transferring blame to others who don't see things your way and call them names? Sounds like you're deflecting the question because you're just not willing to join the "debate" as you put it without looking at other forum member's point of view, which by the way, is the impetus behind true debate: stating a thesis and defending it against one or multiple opposing theses while maintaining civility and trying to find the "truth" in the discourse. As for my question about the legitimacy of your JSA training, it was intended as a way to shed light on the controversy you started... if your claims are indeed valid, why hide behind this feigned indignation/name calling? You could end all of the negativity in one stroke simply by naming your awarded rank, your affiliation with certified JSA instructors, etc.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Sept 15, 2014 3:53:13 GMT
The thing is Rod doesn't want to debate, he just wants everyone to agree to what he said and his greatest.
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Post by Student of Sword on Sept 15, 2014 4:01:52 GMT
The original post was pseudo-Zen mumbo jumbo. You see this often w/ Westerners who are not actually Buddhists, and never actually practice Zen. What they say cannot be confirmed or refuted because it doesn't mean anything.
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Aikidoka
Member
Monstrous monk in training...
Posts: 1,452
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Post by Aikidoka on Sept 15, 2014 4:05:48 GMT
Well, this is unfortunate.
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this discussion. I enjoyed reading other people opinions on this topic, which touches an important aspect of training in the arts.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 15, 2014 4:13:38 GMT
I don't think that anybody's getting anything positive out of this thread. I am considering closing it, and will if the current negative course it has taken continues. Bad form, guys.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2014 12:03:34 GMT
Rob, I think that is a cop-out. People are going to be dismissive of you because you don't follow up with pointed questions. A thread getting warm doesn't mean antagonism. I've had pointed and sustained discussions with people here that bordered on frustration, but that's bound to happen when passionate people discuss something they care about and worked hard for and shouldn't be a reason for lasting animosity or to prevent any of us from having a beer and laughing about the internet if we ever ran into each other in person. Hell, I doubt you recall but I even came out speaking on your side when you made your announcement about teaching whatever it was you're doing so lets not pretend everyone is out to get you when they see your username.
I'm sorry you're offended that most people are looking sidelong at your thesis. I really believe that over-emphasizing the esoteric stuff that can't even be proven is a detriment to development in any martial art and such energy is far better served developing a core competence in very basic fundamentals, unless your intention is to play Yoda and recite platitudes over executing clean and solid technique. If you want to produce martial artists, it's putting the cart a few hundred miles in front of the horse. Koans and meditation aren't going to give me technique, listening to my teachers and putting in the hours woodshedding and striving for better is what will move me forward.
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Post by Rob Dorsey on Sept 16, 2014 0:46:19 GMT
Ok, how's this for direct Jon? I don't give a semprini about dans or JST hierarchy or belts. In fact I found early on that the sports orientation of the sword is a blasphemy. For this reason I have strayed from certified ryu and sensei unless they teach the essence of the true sword. My journey to my level of technique has, therefore, been a lonely one. And a long one encompassing some twenty five years.
So let's do the bio over again. Hi, I'm Rob Dorsey and I live in Northern Kentucky. I am 67 years old and retired from a 37 year career as an airline captain and manager, starting with flying for the CIA in Cambodia in the early seventies through over 20,000 hours to most recently retiring as Chief Pilot for DHL Worldwide, seven years ago. Captained the DC-3 all the way to the B-747 without a violation or a scratch on an airplane. Since then I have pursued a second career as a novelist and I've just finished my third book, now in final editing. The title's "Sword Masters Of Mars" and yeah it's science fiction but it's good science fiction. My books bring Sci-Fi to the licking edge of literature.
Intermixed with all this has been an avid pursuit of Japanese Sword Art. I began when I returned from SE Asia in 1973 having been exposed to Martial Arts during my time there, more than once having been on the unfortunate receiving end. The sword has always attracted me so on layover’s in Japan I sought out sword stores and dojos there with little success. A young gaijin with little money could not even drum up a conversation.
Back in the Big PX I again knocked on dojo doors but they were all dinky dao for karate and wouldn't let me bring a katana into the place. Too bad too because I've had this real nice Kyu Gunto Katana. But they didn't want to play with sticks. That was in Dallas in 1974 and after that I searched as I moved until living in NYC I found a nice little dojo in Queens run by an old Okinawan gentleman who said "common in son," and proceeded to wipp my butt with his beat up old bokuto. Since then it's been a couple of years here and there from dojo to dojo never settling down to a ryu, until it occurred to me, I didn't want to settle down with one school or discipline. I wanted to learn to fight, not to spar for points or get a belt or a dan or two. I wanted to perfect my technique to win a fight, cold nuts, hands down. I also found that the only way to this is full contact sparing with bokuto. If you're scared you can use foam armor or a bo or anything you want but it's just going to slow you down. And, my men's still gonna put a knot on your noggin. If you don't go full contact, you got no skin in the game and as such you don't really test your endocrine system, you don't get your blood pressure up.
So that's it kiddies. I'm sort of a JSA ronin, solo practicing most of the time, using many Iado kata but not all - with my old knees jumping up from seiza and back down really hurts - and using most everything taught in Kenjutsu. In fact, if I meet other practitioners, that's what I profess to follow, Kenjutsu. I've even scraped up a couple of matches in the bar when the OKA (Ohio Kendo Asso.) crowd is in town. Next year I'm carrying a couple of bokuto in the car when I go out. Have a few cold ones with the bamboo killers. See what develops. One never knows, do one?
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 16, 2014 1:38:11 GMT
Thread locked until tempers recede. The following rules have been violated:
4. To treat other Members, staff and moderators with respect at all times (in public and via private message) despite your personal feelings toward them. If as a Member you are treated disrespectfully or “attacked” by another Member, do not react to it in the same spirit but simply report the post to a moderator. The chivalrous thing to do in these situations is to simply ignore inflammatory comments – they will be dealt with quickly enough by the active moderator on duty;
5. Keep other Members’ threads on topic by not derailing or otherwise hijacking the topic of a thread. If the OP (original poster) asks about a specific product or question, do not answer ‘get a [insert alternative product here] instead’ unless the OP has specifically requested alternative options. If you do not like a particular product, you must address it in a ‘pros and cons’ format. In other words, find a few good things to say about it – not just dismiss it out of hand because it is not to your personal tastes.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 17, 2014 19:00:46 GMT
Re-opened. Please, from now on either keep it friendly and respectful or don't post.
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Post by Rob Dorsey on Sept 18, 2014 0:12:39 GMT
Text deleted due to repetition. Read on page six. RD
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Post by Student of Sword on Sept 18, 2014 4:00:16 GMT
WOW! Sword sensei, doctor of philosophy, zen master, spy extraordinaire, tripled tabbed super soldier.... Is there anything you aren't great at? Is there anything you haven't done?
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 18, 2014 4:13:43 GMT
From now on the rule here is that if you don't have anything nice to say then please don't say anything. Nobody is required to read this thread, so please cease to do so if you don't want to hear what the OP has to say or discuss it in a respectful manner.
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Post by Rob Dorsey on Sept 21, 2014 20:20:23 GMT
Gentlemen,
During the hiatus of this thread I have taken the time to re-read and analyze the posts from both "sides" of the discussion. One of the points that seemed to pop up was an accusation of woo-woo, spooky allegiance to Zen Buddhist philosophy in the techniques I advocated. Being fully aware that we don't discuss religion here, I think it is safe to say that I am Zen Buddhist and have been for forty years. Not as a religion but as a way of living and a way of looking at life. Therefore, the Zen tenants expressed within Bushido do not trouble me at all and, having studied Zen here and in Japan, Korea, Thailand and Cambodia it is natural that I would accept Bushido's Zen references just as I accept the Shinto and Confucian studies, with which Bushido is replete.
But, where I diverge from most of the modern attitudes surrounding the sportification of Budo is that it concentrates upon the sport of the activities rather than their Bu, their essence. I merely try to be true to that essence and so did Donn Draeger in his very important work "Japanese Swordsmanship" which he completed shortly before his death. If I follow a master it is Draeger San. His immersion in the fighting arts of Asia turned him into one of the most prolific writers and contributors of the genre. Go to Amazon, search on his name and prepare to be amazed by the number and diversity of works which bear his name.
Study your kata, learn some of the wonderful Japanese language and study the wide ranging philosophy wrapped around and through this ancient art. Embrace all that you can. I for instance embrace the concept of imminent death required by Bushido. I also extend this to the death of my enemy so long as that is the honorable path. Musashi Sensei taught us "kill not for pride or vengeance or gain or for one's un-righteous lord, but for Justice, the safety of one's self and loved ones and for one's sacred honor; for these things are worth spending your own life, or that of another." But what the Master did not add is that one must be at all times ready to accept the consequence of his actions
For the ultimate purpose of the sword, its place in modern context, I'm still trying to figure that out. The appropriateness of its use is totally circumstantial so it is hard to state one's creed. But I'm half way there in knowing that I do not fear death, my own or that of another, as monstrous that may seem. It is all circumstantial you see. If you got into a duel with a social monster, an Adolph Hitler or a Bin Laden, wouldn't you push for a lethal outcome? What about an innocent father of three who simply spilled his drink on your date. These are extreme examples but they are correctly a good starting point.
Think about the reasons why one might choose the Japanese sword as an appropriate weapon in 2014. I can offer only one, it is honorable. It requires of the antagonist that he bring his opponent close, to face him and to read each other's eyes. My guess is that, if we chose the sword over the gun, in many cases, there would be far fewer casualties. Imagine two gang-bangers facing each other in a Chicago alley with katana. That kind of closeness of necessity, humanizes the enemy and forces each to take measure of the other. Also, for the gang member, it takes too long, requires too much thought and is skill based.
To maintain honor, one would have to be prepared to allow the enemy to retreat and be ready then to say that justice has been done. Both must understand that retreat does not bring dishonor, as the Samurai so wrongly thought. Retreat without bloodshed must always be seen as honorable.
Justice for its own sake, this is Bushido.
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Post by Onimusha on Sept 22, 2014 5:15:24 GMT
Well put. It's like learning to play an instrument. When you start, you look at the note on the page and think, "Okay", that's a low "E", so I have to position my fingers like this.." Then you play the note. Once you have learned the "language", so to speak, you glance at the note on the page, and your fingers assume the appropriate position. Your brain goes through the same process, but you don't have to consciously think about it. I think the technical term is "autonomic response ". At that point, someone can place a piece of music in front of you that you have never seen before, and you can play that piece.
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Post by Rob Dorsey on Sept 22, 2014 17:03:44 GMT
Precisely! Musicians call this "through-put" and it equates fairly well to what a typist does when copying a document, see, do, mindlessly. It is very possible that I am wrong, not being a Zen scholar, merely a practitioner, however, this is very close to what I mean by mindfulness, no mind involved or required.
Kiboushi Masu Waraku Desu
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Post by Derzis on Dec 12, 2014 2:05:04 GMT
No but Zen is about `now`. Not a second before, not a second after. That will give you a better understanding maybe. What was said a few lines before, forget wining or losing and just fight is something different even than `concentrating on the fight`.
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Post by Derzis on Dec 12, 2014 2:26:47 GMT
Interesting, you are the first practitioner who puts no stock on body mechanics. Senseis sold you a term and they were looking for you to find the answers (if they were not westerners). How you achieve the ki if not using your body mechanics? From the insignificant kime to whatever you want.
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Post by mindfulloffire on Dec 22, 2014 19:40:28 GMT
i can't understand why there is so many people being dismissive of this concept.
it's well documented in many athletic and artistic pursuits when the practitioner get's into "the zone" many non Buddhists have experienced it and talked about it. Just cause it's "mysticism" doesn't mean it's not real. just because evidence is anecdotal doesn't mean it's not significant.
i'm not saying don't be sceptical but don't let your scepticism keep you from accessing your potential.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2014 14:08:18 GMT
Eastern philosophical concepts are often wasted on westerners due to different cultural perspectives... Mindfulness, or the state of 'no mind' is a concept that the Japanese borrowed, it is a Buddhist concept that came from China, and India before that. The idea is to become detached from all thought, totally at one with the task at hand, a Zen state where nothing exists other than the awareness of the task one is engaging in. What most people don't get here is that mindfulness training can be practised as an art in itself, and applied to whatever one is doing, as a means of spiritual development, or it can be a skill that is acquired for use in a singular task that an accomplished practitioner in any discipline (not just martial arts) achieves through intense focus and extensive practice. To the parade of sceptics out of their depth on this subject, we westerners commonly know the same phenomenon as "being in the zone", a state of being so deeply engrossed in a task that we lose awareness of everything else that is peripheral and unrelated to the subject of focus. We've all experienced it at one time or another in our lives doing something that we get totally absorbed in. The big deal with being able to do this in a martial arts context in a combat situation is that you need to hold that state while tuning out the fear of being maimed or killed, and any doubts about your skills while holding a completely cold, dispassionate and neutral state of mind, and single-mindedly focussing on striking down your opponent, where nothing else in your mind interferes with the pure focus on that task. Can you maintain the same state that you experience when lost in a good book or losing your sense of self totally engrossed in your favourite pastime if someone is trying to kill you? You can if you train to be able to invoke this state at will, you can do so in the most emotionally charged of situations, without having your judgement, focus or effectiveness clouded by emotion or thought. Hopefully that clarifies the subject
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Post by Shirayuki on Jan 15, 2015 15:31:52 GMT
"No mind" doesn't mean you're an empty husk without thoughts. You still think and assess everything that matters, also the environment. No mind refers to not having thoughts about fear, anger, envy and other subjective notions. In essence, you become a computed machine which calculates variables and determines the best response to the situation based on what it knows. There is no room for things like emotions, ego and other thoughts that don't directly contribute to assessing and responding to the situation at hand.
Compare to a "gaming mode" on a computer where all unnecessary processes are ended so it can invest all of its memory to playing the game.
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