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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 10, 2014 3:28:28 GMT
Perhaps it did fall out of a bad movie. The OP suggested that as a check to see if suitable "no mind" was achieved before stepping onto the dojo floor. But it's largely irrelevant to the dojo. The stress of life-or-death combat just isn't there in the dojo. Sparring is not fighting. Much less stress in the first place, and even if your performance suffers from stress, so what? PS1: OK, not completely irrelevant to the dojo. People still get over-tense before competition, and it's useful for them to relax. Or even doing basic drills, or sparring, or whatever, "relax" is often good advice. PS2: In 5 Rings, Musashi does say something along the lines of "don't concentrate on your kamae, concentrate on cutting your opponent". That advice might be ancestral to the OP's suggestion. PS3: FM 22-51 Leader's Manual for Combat Stress Control has a nice relevant graph (in section 2.8): FM 22-51 deals with the same problem (and others), and does it without mysticism. Attachments:
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Post by Rob Dorsey on Sept 10, 2014 4:03:23 GMT
Thank you Chenessfan, it is just about precisely what I mean. When I am "on" during a match, I find that the moves upon which I so often rely are automatic and are lumped by the brain into single reference entities. I find that the conscious mind, the self, snaps in and then out again at appropriate times, particularly when a tactical decision needs to be made and then it goes back on stand-by until needed again. Some of the move pairings are likewise lumped together in a string so that all the mind has to address is the string. The mind can then say, "call me when it's over." The string is accomplished in a state of mindfulness with no conscious thought involved. This does not mean that I am in some woo-woo trance, I'm there and available, it's just that I can sort of lazily sense it all happening around me. No decision from the mind needed. Now, please understand, that's all cool right up to the point when I feel the cool wood of the opponents bokken on my neck.
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Post by Rob Dorsey on Sept 10, 2014 4:27:06 GMT
A bit harsh don't you think? I object to my motives being challenged because, believe it or not, they are pristine. With all the talk on this board of esoterica related to hardware and the best plastic bottles to cut, I thought, and still think, that the conversation might be guided to a slightly higher level, particularly concerning something as germane as the state of mind during combat and how to structure one's training to accomplish goals related to that mind state.
My conceit is that I do try to include this stuff in my own training and so I thought that I had something to contribute on the matter. If you really think that I'm just some old blow hard who likes to hear himself write, then perhaps you might ask yourself why you took the time to read my rubbish? Do you suffer from some kind of intellectual masochism do you just want to read it so that you can try to make clever comments to insult me? Perhaps while I'm reviewing my motives, you might as well.
Secure in Kentucky
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 11:48:51 GMT
[/attachment] FM 22-51 deals with the same problem (and others), and does it without mysticism.[/quote]
We're conflating "stress" or "anxiety" with "mind". I don't think anyone is going to advocate going into training or 'combat' with a stressed, anxious mental state.
So if you strip away the dross, the 7 paragraph opening post could have been "people fight better if they keep cool and pay attention to what is going on"? Talk about taking the long way to arrive at a point that no one would have cause to argue about or even really discuss it in the first place.
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Sept 10, 2014 13:10:32 GMT
I was once told, by someone who knows far more about such things than l do, that the state of "no mind" as it relates to martial arts can be expressed as "forget about winning or losing. Just fight".
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Sept 10, 2014 13:21:36 GMT
Keep it nice people ! no insults
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Sept 10, 2014 13:22:39 GMT
As I suggested earlier, concentrate on the task at hand..
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 10, 2014 13:58:25 GMT
"Mushin" is a technical term, with a generally accepted meaning. It's a bit broader than stress-free, but for our purposes here, "stress-free and distraction-free" is a good translation. A literal translation of the Zen term as "no mind" isn't always best for communication.
Sure. Clarity is good. Zen-speak is hardly ever a path to clarity. Unclear expression in mystic language doesn't make the point less valid, but it does make it harder to see the validity.
Some people might argue about it even if it's expressed clearly - then the argument is about how stressed people get in combat, and how much it impairs performance. A more practical argument, IMO.
Plenty to discuss, too. Such as traditional methods for achieving "calm spirit", "mushin", "no mind", or whatever we call it. They're quite diverse. Then one can talk about modern methods. The modern civilian stuff has a different focus to a lot of the traditional stuff. Traditional methods focussed on battle and duel; modern methods focus more on not freezing when under surprise attack.
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Post by Rob Dorsey on Sept 11, 2014 0:46:01 GMT
Really excellent post Timo,
I'm a fiction writer by trade and when I get into subject I really grok my mind sort of "runs home to Mama." I start saying in three paragraphs what I could have said in one. My personal trap is, I just love the words, like how they sound in my head and how they feel in my mouth read aloud for my wife. So, I tend to naturally be verbose. Sorry, occupational hazard.
But, for my own edification I would really like to hear more about the archaic training of mind states vs the modern, both civi and military. Anybody have experience to share on any one of them. I can help on the archaic, zen based, woo-woo.
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Aikidoka
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Post by Aikidoka on Sept 11, 2014 4:50:30 GMT
Hmmm... do I really want to wade into this discussion? I think I do.
This statement conveys an understanding of martial arts that very much reflects my own. My years of training in Jujitsu taught me many things and in many ways shaped the person that I have become. From day one, I never put any stock in the mystical assertions made at my dojo concerning Ki (energy). But I trained with people, including my instructors, who believed, for example, in a universal energy that resides in everything in our world and can be channeled for various purposes (healing (Reiki), among other things). I kept my personal views to myself, but kept my eyes and, to a certain extent, my mind open. What I came to see over time is that these ideas can actually be very effective mental visualization tools which can allow you to do some pretty amazing things. Focus and relaxation are a big part of it. People are capable of a LOT more than the average individual will do or experience in their lives. These tools can help us remain calm and focused when, for example, being thrown from the shoulders of a 6'2" training partner through the air to land on your side on the ground and then pop back up to be thrown again half a dozen more times. No fear, no injury, plenty of energy.
If the concept of "no mind" is a helpful visualization tool which allows someone to achieve the desired level of focus and relaxation while training, then I think it has served a useful purpose. I found that, for me, looking past any mystical claims and, instead, learning the value of these tools in helping focus and tap into our considerable potential has been very beneficial to my training in martial arts.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 11, 2014 4:59:16 GMT
The quick version: Samurai, predating Zen: The cult of Marishiten was widespread among samurai. Magical protection, and emphasis on calmness in combat and mushin. Philippine martial arts: Use of anting-anting (protective charms) and orasyon (protective prayers, spoken, mentally "spoken", written or tattooed). Protective magic was used by many traditional warriors. If you have reliable magical protection that will stop you from getting killed in battle, why would you need to worry about death in battle? Very widespread practice, which has been used in the Americas, in Europe, in Africa, in Asia, in Australia, and is still used today. I suggest that the widespread popularity of such magic is not because it actually works and provides protection, but because it helps reduce fear. Does it work today? Haven't we stopped believing in magic? Note that soldiers have/will often carried items they felt were lucky. Not always things specifically made as lucky charms, but ordinary items that they thought brought them luck. E.g., www.army.mil/article/653/Soldier ... rms__039_/ On the modern battlefield, belief in invulnerability can be counter-productive, but in earlier times, people would run away from warriors in fearless "invulnerable" states. There's the extreme version of such states, exemplified by the Viking berserk and the Celtic ríastrad (warp-spasm), also seen across many continents. Apart from Zen and the Marishiten cult, there are/were other meditative practices. (I see that while I was writing this, Aikidoka2012 added some relevant comment above.) Then there are training tools where part (or most) of the goal is to reduce stress in combat. This applies to a lot of modern training, too. It's why a lot of people push "aliveness" in training - make the training experience more like the fighting experience, and the fighter will be less likely to freeze or over-adrenalise. It's one of the purposes of sparring, especially with hard contact. One of the purposes of two-person kata in armed arts. There are modern drills where it's the main goal. Such are often described as "stress inoculation". These include role-playing scenarios to make a self-defense drill be more real-life-like, high-pressure drills, and more. Maybe more later - that's all I have time for now.
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Post by Rob Dorsey on Sept 14, 2014 3:13:43 GMT
Looking past the fact that it a movie and purely fictional, the scene in Last Samurai in which Tenakaga goes to the badly beaten Tom Cruse and advises him: "Too many minds, mind of sword, mind of people watching, mind of opponent, too many minds. No mind. No mind." I personally cannot think of a scene or quotation which more succinctly sums up my whole point in this discussion. It is what I try to practice and what I teach. Focus and open-mindedness to let you see through the fog of combat. And I agree that the purpose and practicality of sparing is to attempt to create that fog, to stress the combatant so that these training concepts become valid. I've not killed a man with a sword. However there are other weapons, bladed and firearm, that have provided that most regrettable experience to many of my generation and I reckon it would be very similar, particularly to the knife. The point is that one must be ready for whatever comes and to do whatever is required, just to stay alive. To this end I consider the sword a valid weapon.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Sept 14, 2014 3:47:25 GMT
Rob, I hope you don't take offense at this, but I've noticed a similarity about your posts in which you seem to state an observation you've made and then let the post run with it, which sometimes makes forum members take sides over the validity of your assertions. This usually ends up with members who used to be friendly with each other now feeling some kind of negativity about each other instead. I'm hoping this isn't your intent. I remember a while back you posted about opening up your own dojo, using some extant forms/techniques from the styles you've mentioned having taken, but also adding your own ideas in the mix... can you please let us know the extent of your JSA training (school/lineage/years in it) so that we can take what you say without jumping to conclusions, and also if you did indeed open up a school/dojo? Thanks in advance.
Mods: if you think my post doesn't belong here, please delete.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Sept 14, 2014 9:05:40 GMT
Seems a polite question in a reasonable manner, although Rob is in no way required to answer
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Post by Student of Sword on Sept 14, 2014 14:28:16 GMT
It is a reasonable question. In JSA, credential matters. A WHOLE LOT.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2014 14:53:08 GMT
In sport fencing or dojo sparring, you only have to worry about the man in front of you, and maybe possibly a referee with a flag or a guy with a stick jumping in to halt the action. You don't have to worry about the problems of throwing yourself forward in a way that leaves you unable to suddenly sidestep or turn off-line when your opponent's friend in the audience decides to jump in and take a shot at you or whatever.
In order to respond to an attack, you need to be aware of it coming. I didn't come installed with a guardian angel, so I need to use things like peripheral vision and auditory clues to try to instill the ability to recognize what's happening around me. If you aren't paying attention to the opponent, the opponent's sword, the crunch of loose gravel on the ground underneath you, the ripple of fabric or the sound of a sword being drawn behind you, you're running the risk of getting tripped up or cut down.
Mitigating the bad effects of stress and compromised motor function and target acquisition is one thing. Pontificating about metaphysics is a whole other deal and completely unnecessary to transmitting an art or executing the techniques and embodying the principles of a given art. I don't need to practice Buddhism or Shinto in order to study sword work or be effective. If you're approaching your sword training as a spiritual pursuit, more power to you, but these things are not necessarily as intertwined as you might prefer them to be.
The scene you're referring to is pure romanticism. Tom Cruise gets his lunch handed to him until he takes a dramatic breath with his eyes close and somebody toots on a flute in the distance, then all of a sudden he's able to hold his own? It's artistic license and nothing else.
The sword is a weapon, but it is an obsolete one, like a flint arrowhead or a matchlock rifle, employed by enthusiasts for sentimental or recreational purposes. My beige box 486 in the basement is still as much of a computer as it was 25 or whatever years ago, but it's no longer being used for its original intended purpose. These things have been replaced with better answers.
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Post by Unit731 on Sept 14, 2014 19:25:23 GMT
Pretty much this. Through kata, or formations, one learns specific movements to implant in their muscle memory so its something that doesn't require conscious thought so one might be able to respond to what is in front of them automatically.
Not sure if I misinterpreted, but thats the message I got and can relate to. In a spar, one doesn't have much time to think, and many times, one can only act. If one's actions are premeditated or trained in a specific way, all one is left with is what action is best to take. Say... The opponent gives a fast attack, all one can do is choose what action is best to counter, as opposed to how one should execute this counter, which would only waste time.
I used to spar full contact with no armor, and I had little time to decide how to execute my actions. All I had time for was what actions I could react with, and it wasn't guaranteed which actions would work best. So in the procession of 10 seconds, at most, I had to think up an attack, a counter attack and a plan b. A lot of the time it was intuition and reflexes as well. anything to avoid being hit really, while being able to hit them.
I am kinda drunk most of the time, so I am not very coherent. :?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 14, 2014 23:41:12 GMT
To be technical with respect to vocabulary, that would be zanshin ("remaining mind"), rather than mushin ("no mind"). Of course, it is important, whatever one calls it.
Hard to achieve when distracted by other thoughts, or tunnel-visioned by too much stress. Perhaps we might say that mushin is a prerequisite for zanshin.
Agreed. For samurai, it was natural to use Buddhist/Zen language to describe mental technical points, and Buddhist/Zen methods to try to achieve the mental skills (sometimes such language is used to describe the physical skills, too). But that doesn't make the technical points or goals "spiritual". It's common for outsiders to read too much into such Buddhist/Zen language (the kyudo-Zen thing is often really overdone).
People use the physical/mental aspect as a path to achieve spiritual goals, whether expressed in Buddhist/Zen terms, in the language of other religions, or even unstated. The physical aspect demands the mental aspect (mushin, concentration, focus, calmness, or however we express it) for ideal performance, and achievement of this mental aspect can help them approach their spiritual goals. It can work both ways: spiritual -> mental -> physical, or physical -> mental -> spiritual.
The obsolescence of (most) armed martial arts means that lots of people do them for the physical -> mental -> spiritual path. Or for fitness. Or for fun. Or for historical interest. Not many do them in order to actually fight (outside competition). Some of those who fight for competition (and this is also the case in unarmed arts) will make use of the spiritual -> mental -> physical path. (Not just fighters, but other athletes as well will use meditation. Calmness helps many kinds of physical activity. If you count meditation as spiritual, this path is very common. If you count meditation as mental, not spiritual, this path is less common, but still there.)
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Post by Rob Dorsey on Sept 15, 2014 2:56:16 GMT
The following rant is not intended for the 5% of forum users who are both civil and educated. You know guys, I abandoned this forum for quite a few months and for just the sort of silliness this thread has brought to light. First the entire faux-civility and fake courtesy "well, with all respect and due courtesy, you are a word whoring troll who doesn't know squat about the art" sort of diatribe True courtesy acknowledges understanding of the speaker's point and then presents a differing and objective view of that or an alternative point. That's the essence of a true debate. Many on this forum put themselves on sword art pedestal from which they pontificate regarding other's lack of knowledge or citation. Please, it makes me ill to "debate" with barely literate yokels who would not know a real debate if it bit them in the ... well, you get it. The very idea that I had put concepts out there that required actual thought in order to answer was an act of trolling is on its face, ludicrous. It seems that no one or very few on the forum cut any slack or at the very least try to understand the OP's thesis before attacking. Here the rule seems to be attack first then never apologize. I came back only to kill the time while my wife gets ready for bed. I thought maybe it had gotten better. Oh well, no matter since the mods will remove this anyway. rd@america-jin.org!
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Post by chrisperoni on Sept 15, 2014 3:06:53 GMT
Thanks for proving my point.
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