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Post by randomnobody on Jul 27, 2014 18:53:13 GMT
I dunno about the burning wraps after each battle; period pieces portray very nearly identical dressings as what we see now, which would indicate not much was different during proper war times, and there are as many accounts (and surviving examples) of swords with battle wear and stains from having seen multiple conflicts without a redressing. It's too complicated, yes, which is why it was done back home; not back at camp.
As for modern campaigns, they tend to be a lot of driving around in vehicles or sitting at base. Sometimes walking through either an urban or desert environment; not a lot of mud out there, and very little actual conflict. Especially close quarters, which is why swords aren't really in use anymore, and even bayonets and knives have faded. That's the other reason "tactical swords" have always rubbed me the wrong way: they're just not tools for the modern battlefield, so why try to make them?
All that aside, I do like slav's "meet in the middle" approach. I also like the shorter size, as it's immeasurably more practical compared to a full-length sword. But for those who must have a full-length sword for all their "tactical" applications, I'm sure slav would be just as willing to redress any sword you send him as such; probably easier than getting longer blades to start with.
I don't know if I like the idea of a "striking pommel," though. All pommels are striking pommels, if you hit the other guy with it. Doesn't have to be made specially to do this; the only disadvantage to a katana in this application is the kashira being a separate piece, held on only by the ito, versus a peened pommel on a Euro sword, or an integrated pommel on any other sword or knife. I don't know what would have to go into a proper integrated pommel for these particular swords, but it seems like a lot of work for something that will probably never see any use.
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Post by Svante Nilsson on Jul 27, 2014 19:20:12 GMT
Embellishment my friend, artists love it, Japanese are no different from European painters, unless your prepared to believe angels descended on various occasions, as portrayed in euro paintings and that nobody ever got dirty from battle . It makes sense for them to portray fighters with there usual more beautiful wraps rather than the plain "all business" wrap. I remember a clear distinction between Euro Armies and Japan was than they did not have "washing ladies", in such a case it makes sense that they burned dirty wraps and replaced them, which is something i have already seen mentioned more than once, but i can't be sure. I guess i'm getting old , Portuguese Colonial Wars for the hunters, was nothing like that, all i remember was hunger, blazing heat followed by cold, and always a bucket of humidity, while crawling around the bush in search of the insurgent. If anything a full size katana is a much better idea for slav's business, last time i checked people buy more katana's than waki's, regardless of how useful they are or in what situation ( "modern" tactical or not ). Also sword collecting has never been about useful, its about what you prefer, so avoid patronizing people and judging there "tactical needs", thank you. As discussed before, its just an exposed tang, not that much work at all, and people can do or not what they please with it. And obviously a pommel that has been made for striking will be better than one that hasn't, just compare slav's tactical tanto pommel to a regular Japanese pommel, and you tell me what you would rather have if you needed to strike with it.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 27, 2014 19:33:49 GMT
Hmm, perhaps. Not all artists were so into embellishment, though; some were legitimate record-keepers and I think they should have noted the more common footsoldiers as having less ornate weapons; can't recall a case of this, though.
I think most soldiers fortunate enough to survive a conflict in those days would be less concerned about how dirty their swords were, so I'm still not sold on burning the wraps and replacing them. Unless a wrap is damaged beyond repair, there's no sense in destroying it over some blood or dirt.
I'll concede to not knowing anything and Portugal's military history, so I don't know how long ago you are referring, but from what I've heard from folks currently engaged, it's a very different matter from even a couple of decades ago.
I certainly am not in disagreement on the "size sells" prospect, but I'd also like to think if one were being properly tactically minded, one would hold consideration for "size obstructs" just as well.
No argument, in fact we agree, that sword collecting nowadays is solely a matter of preference, and I am not intending to patronize anybody whose preferences differ from mine. On the contrary, this whole exchange htad merely been me picking your brain in an effort to understand the "tactical" market and its mindset; what people like about it and why. It's never appealed to me, so it's a curiosity of mine.
I think perhaps this is becoming a bit to inflammatory for you, so I'll back off, but not without affirming that neither of our opinions are any more or less right, and neither of us is obligated to defer to the other.
You like this stuff, and that's great. I don't, particularly, and that's fine. I like learning why people like things, you don't like being questioned. That's peachy, too.
Before we go and ruin poor Slav's thread, though, I'll go ahead and be the one to step down. The market will see what comes of this line, and I'll be over here, watching.
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Post by Pogo4321 on Jul 27, 2014 21:13:22 GMT
Well, I have become a fan of the modern tactical esthetic in swords. I own many Zombie Tools. I really like what Slav posted here. The size is about right on for me and I very much like the handle wrap--this style actually something I'd been planning to look into at some point. I like the idea of doing away with wood in grips--no worries about cracking, drying or shrinking.
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slav
Senior Forumite
Posts: 818
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Post by slav on Jul 28, 2014 0:30:57 GMT
Great discussion going on here guys. My idea of a "tactical" sword concept is something that is a more practical size and design for modern personal defensive or offensive use. Not necessarily something that is ultra-rugged for warfare or combat. It does away with some traditional features in the name of durability and practicality, while retaining the spirit of a sword, as opposed to a fighting knife, machete, or multi-tool. More like something a practitioner could keep or take with them in a current-day SHTF situation where they may actually need to use their training. However we never endorse the use of our products as a weapon. Ours are life-giving swords.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Jul 28, 2014 16:29:41 GMT
The problem with striking with the but end of a traditional katana is the tang doesn't go all the way to the end. You take a big chance of the wood splitting making the sword useless.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 28, 2014 19:06:24 GMT
Good point, fallen; hadn't even thought about that. I'm not sure how common pommel strikes are in JSA, but it seems three are more than a few locks with the guard, makes me wonder if a desperate chance might have been worth the risk in the heat of it all...
I'm still not personally sold on integrated/extended striking pommels on kats, knives sure, Euros and other sword types okay, but I dunno, it just looks out of place to me.
Again, just me being old-fashioned.
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Post by Student of Sword on Jul 28, 2014 19:12:59 GMT
There are at least two katas with pommel strike in Seitei Iai, FYI.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 28, 2014 19:35:55 GMT
Interesting. Trying to not veer too far off topic, so I'll just take it upon myself to look those up; thanks for the heads-up, SoS.
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slav
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Post by slav on Jul 28, 2014 20:20:45 GMT
I like the idea of an exposed pommel for use as a glass breaker or generally breaking things without risking damage to the blade itself. However I'm not too much into the pointed "skull crusher" design because it precludes palm-thrusting and could even pose a tactical risk to the user in very confined CQC.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Jul 29, 2014 10:39:03 GMT
If you can do this I would like to see a 1/2in thick oval shape steel pommel the same size as the grip peened on to the tang.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Jul 29, 2014 20:54:51 GMT
The way you have it on that Tanto pictured on the first page of the thread is awesome for utility and whatnot, as well as looks.
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Post by Elf-knight444 on Aug 9, 2014 20:18:08 GMT
Personally I am a big fan of tactical swords and knives, not only because of their functionality, but their looks as well. Some things I want from a tac sword: increased durability, rust resistant blade, waterproof/resistant handle and components, modernized/sleek look, multiple functions, easy to care for.
Of these traits, durability comes first and foremost. I don't want a sword to be a "sharpened crowbar" when it comes to handling, but I do want it to hold up to abuse like a crowbar. A tactical sword I want to be something that I would feel confident in using to survive in the wilderness and/or defend myself from attack with, which I honestly cannot say about most katana. Waterproofing is important to a survival ready sword. The sword should also be very low maintenance, so if there were some blood and guts on it you could just wipe it off and not have to dig around in nooks and crannies and whatnot.
As for looks, its all about personal preference, of course. I appreciate simplicity and a sort of ready for use look. The standard tac look is fine for me (i.e. holes in the handle, a double slab full tang hilt, crosshatching for grip, understated guard...). That said, traditional katana beauty is always welcome and this is all just my opinion.
What you have started here slav is something really unique in appearance in that it seems a blend of traditional katana and tactical practicality. For instance, the shortened blade and lengthened handle are very tactical in nature, but the ito wrap looks mored traditional. But then again, it looks like its made of a sort of shinier, more leathery material, which lends a sleekness and modernization (although this kind of handle wrap isn't very practical for cleaning, it looks so cool I can't really complain). All in all I will definitely consider purchasing some of these products when you finish. Looks very cool.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 10, 2014 7:28:39 GMT
You can have a good sword or a crowbar, you not going to get both in one tool.
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Post by mrvei on Aug 11, 2014 19:51:09 GMT
i would like one, i hope the saya system you do with is smallish and can be mounted to a backpack mollie type
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Post by Elf-knight444 on Aug 12, 2014 4:17:55 GMT
Its probably a hope never to be fulfilled haha.
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Post by DefensiveAction on Aug 15, 2014 3:00:40 GMT
hey, just my input. first if it was going to be "tactical" I stand with you that it should be a large enough tsuka for 2 hands(around 10") and a much shorter blade(20-24") now to the tsuka. I think what you have done is very interesting concept, but I must agree that having the exposed (combat, maybe even pointed in a forward curve?) tang is an excellent idea that I haven't seen before. on to the blade. my favorite blade style is unokubi zukuri very fast design and the geometry allows it to be very light, yet balanced(plus it usually has a double bo-hi). I think that would work excellent in a tactical sword(and look tactical to boot) but another idea would be moroha zukuri. because I doubt noto would be a big thing with a tactical sword(especially with a kydex sheath). the biggest thing for me would be the price point. what kind of price would something like this cost. I understand quality cost money. but there isn't a large "tactical" sword market, and what is already out there is between $80-$150 normally. so if its going to be $4-$500, then I cant see u getting a lot of offers for them.
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Post by madawcisrich on Aug 20, 2014 22:23:13 GMT
Completely agree with this!
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Post by justin520 on Sept 12, 2014 11:39:59 GMT
I really like this idea, I'd say go a bit shorter to, like 15 inch blade 10 inch handle for cqc situations. Ohh and use a fuchi instead of a turks head knot, add a chisel ground secondary bevel for ease of sharpening, and maybe coat the steel for rust resistance. Pretty please include color customization options. If these things happen I'll throw money at you slav. ps, taco style kydex sheath on a kydex d-ring dangler
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slav
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Post by slav on Nov 7, 2014 3:39:54 GMT
Here's the latest evolution of the tactical concept. Slightly shorter blade, and shorter tsuka/blade ratio. It's more of a one-hander but has enough room for a "hand and a half". Better balance and concealability. Also, the "pommel" is exposed but not pointed, so it can be used for blunt-force but does not provide risk to the user:
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