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Post by Deepbluedave on Mar 8, 2014 7:31:35 GMT
Been thinking about this subject for a few days now and it is kind of depressing how much money I have tied up in deposits for swords I may never see, have been considering cancelling a few of these wayward orders as a matter of principle as delays of over two years is just a joke, on a positive note though, prices have risen so drastically in the last four years that if they ever turn up they will have increased in value by nearly 50%.
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Post by William Swiger on Mar 8, 2014 9:45:36 GMT
I still think a waiting list with no deposit is more fair. Once your number comes up, then a deposit is fine to cover materials and even labor costs. Maybe even 75% of the total price once your commission is started if the maker is doing full time work on it.
I understand makers need to make a living off of this work but taking deposits sometimes a couple years out is suspect. Where does that money go? It keeps the maker afloat by having money fronted to enable him to complete other orders ahead of your order. It is basically a loan that will be paid when your order comes up. This is where we see problems with people who end up taking the money and vanishing. You are taking money from someone to finish other projects. Want a refund? Good luck as most of these people have spent your money and other peoples money already to stay in business. They will have to refund you from someone else's "loan" on a future project. In a normal business arrangement, would you pay someone an advance for a product or work that will not be started until sometime in the future?
I am not busting out the makers who deliver their products in a timely manner and everyone will have personal or professional problems sometimes. It is the makers who almost never deliver their products on time after agreeing on a projected completion date. Waiting months or years past a projected completion date is just plain crazy.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Mar 8, 2014 15:01:14 GMT
I would agree that a waiting list with no deposit would be very advantageous to the client, not so much to the maker. I know you weren't calling out all makers but I did want to give a perspective from the other viewpoint. I can't speak for other makers, but I would be spending 1/3 to 1/2 my work year twiddling my thumbs if I relied on a waiting list with no deposits. No exaggeration, that's how often people indicate that they definitely want to have a particular item made and then flake when the time comes around for funds to be sent. That's no way to run a business either. Funds from individual clients don't just go to one piece of steel, 3 pounds of bronze, 6 pieces of sandpaper, and 10 pounds of gas; purchase of supplies needs to be planned out more efficiently than that. And you can't very well be ordering thousands of dollars in materials throughout the year if you don't know if there will even be funds coming in for the rest of the month. I personally know someone who tries to run his foundry like that, buying little bits as needed, month to month and week to week. He doesn't have a house anymore.
It's not at all uncommon for people to have to plan to have funds set aside for high end custom work. If they are told their spot is in three months and then you need to move it up to now to fill an opening on the list, there is a good chance the 3 month person won't have the funds available to start. I also agree that taking deposits for work that wont start a year or two out is not necessary (though again I can't speak for other makers), though if both parties know ahead of time that will be the timeframe, then I don't see a problem with that either. I don't think that's that uncommon for custom work other than knives and swords.
I again agree that someone taking deposits or full payments and then running months or years behind schedule shouldn't be tolerated. But as long as it is tolerated, it will continue. When I take deposits, they go in the bank, not my pocket or into other projects. Similar to how a retainer for an attorney works (You pay ahead of time to show you have the funds. The funds go into an account and are withdrawn as they are actually earned). If I were to die tomorrow, there is someone here who knows where to look to see who has paid what and will be able to refund payment for work that won't be completed. I suspect in some of these cases where a lot of money has been taken and work is years behind, a lot of people will be SOL if something happens to the person who was supposed to be doing the work.
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Post by William Swiger on Mar 8, 2014 16:00:42 GMT
Your business is run very well and is one of the best I have experienced in buying custom swords. Fable Blades also is top notch on the business side of things.
There has been some issues where people are left hanging without refunds or swords in recent memory. Some people who customize swords have skipped out with upfront money and peoples swords as well. We have other makers who cannot meet a deadline to save their ass. Not all makers require deposits and some who do not are horrible on the business side of things as well.
I have no problem with an established maker who delivers close to schedule and has a good business model being paid a deposit.
The overall thread was directed more about makers who give customers projected completion dates and on a routine basis cannot deliver as agreed upon. It kind of morphed into other areas. ;-)
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Mar 8, 2014 16:59:57 GMT
I've no doubt this happens... sometimes I had made a deal to buy sword(s) and the timetable had gotten so much longer then expected that when they told me the swords were ready, I was a bit surprised and broke at the time. I still paid, and then promptly flooded the SBG market with swords for sale to cover what I just paid... :cry: but that is because I am very old school, and I think a mans word is his bond. I am sure there are a lot of flakers out there... and that could be rough on the maker/seller. The best compromise on this I have ever dealt with would be Christian Fletcher. You pay 100 bucks to reserve your sword slot, and then he builds your sword and tells you its ready, sending you pictures. Then you send him the balance, and you get your sword. Fletcher is popular and so has some wait time... last I dealt with him it was about 6 months... but he hit that time frame bang on, sent me a request for the rest of the money... and once sent, I got my sword. No mus, no fus. The best way to deal with 2 year wait times and the like, and huge deposits, is to vote with your wallet. I'll certainly do business with Fletcher again... but I'm 90% sure I won't be doing any "all the money upfront, wait forever" type deals anymore, no matter how much I like the makers product.
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Post by Deepbluedave on Mar 15, 2014 0:39:12 GMT
I agree Sean it is a case of one bad apple spoils the barrel.
I have contacted the makers who I am having delays with and given them a deadline to meet or to refund my deposits, but as the saying goes a fool and his money are often parted and too be honest at the moment I feel the fool, for taking people at their word. I will most likely lose money on these cancelled orders and then I think my days of ordering custom swords will be over.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Mar 15, 2014 5:51:00 GMT
Maybe... but you always have the option of waiting for me to offer epic swords for sale and scooping them up then and there, no wait time. :lol:
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Mar 15, 2014 8:36:47 GMT
YEP!
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Post by Deepbluedave on Mar 21, 2014 23:05:39 GMT
This topic still causing me grieve so I contacted my wayward sword maker's about a refund.
Rick Barrett gave me an updated deadline that if not met, will result in a refund, total time now for this project is 25 months, ordered Feb 2012 / deadline is now June 1st 2014.
Next up is Raven Armouries, multiple swords ordered with a staggered deadline. Ordered December 2010 with an expected completion date of June 2012 for all swords. New deadline is first two swords to be in my hands before Christmas 2014 or all orders cancelled then a staggered delivery till complete, they have told me that all new orders now have a 5 year waiting list and custom orders are now 6 years.
On a couple of other waiting lists, but as minimal or no money has exchanged hands I'm fine with waiting. A sad result of these delays is that I will be no longer buying custom swords and I am very close to not purchasing any new production swords, till this is sorted one way or another, others have said it before.
Still disappointed it had to come to this, will update as the deadlines are met or cancelled.
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Post by Arwyn on Apr 4, 2014 23:13:23 GMT
Sorry to see that Dave, that's a tough position to be in. I have been of mixed opinions on custom for a long time. I did a lot of knife buying back in the day, and more selling (they tended to go though my hands quickly in my younger cash poor days). The knife market got, and remains, stupidly expensive. Times for custom orders "went plaid" and approached a level of absurdity that still blows my mind. And everyone treated it as business as usual. I got out as it was making me cynical and bitter. I knew some of the custom makers from the area, and drank beers in their garage/shop watching them work on an occasion or two, or three... Seeing them work, and how tight some of them ran margin-wise gave me a pretty good understanding how some of this market works. Brotherbanzai's point is very valid, the maker has money tied up in stock and materials, and there are a large number of people that can flake out on a deal, even when they have an investment in the product. That's tough for the smith. Ironically, the ethical guys I knew that ran on tight margins did their damnedest to deliver. If there was a problem, they told folks what was what, and where the schedule was. I personally saw some of them take abuse from the client for missing the date, and try to make it right. I was also at a show and watched one smith, who charged top dollar for his wares, basically tell someone that "you get it when you get it" as he wasnt "killing himself over a date". I wasn't impressed, and cancelled my order after hearing it. He laughed at me. Needless to say, never bought anything from him or by him ever again. With the knives experience under my belt, I am a bit more cynical regarding custom orders. I personally don't mind putting money into a project to get what I want. But I want to make DAMN sure that my money and my sword show up in a reasonable time frame. I want to find a smith that does the kind of work I like, and charges a fair price, and isn't a raving jackass, and delivers close to the date given. I pay a LOT of attention to reputation and feedback here, and that dictates my decision making in where I spend my cash. Almost all my customs have been Euros, because outside of the China custom katana market, I REALLY don't like what I have seen the custom katana market doing right now. Reminds me too much of the old knife days (John Lundemo excepted). I have kind of lumped vendors into ) 1. "go to" 2. reputable 3."wait a year" 4. "be prepared to lose money" 5."no way in hell". That being said, I have bought from some very reputable vendors, and had some delays. I get that RL happens, and I don't mind if there is communication about what is going on and why. What really rubs me the wrong way was having something go WAY long, and having zero communication. When I have to go on a tooth pulling expedition to get information on project status, something is clearly wrong. As an example, I ordered two things from Albion. A bare blade for a project, and a sword. I got told at the order time that the blade would ship immediately if in stock, otherwise it would be a month. Sword was going to run 60 to 90 days. Put down my deposit and went on my merry way. Long story short, the blade was late by a couple of months, and the sword was way way late. The rub was that I had to call several times to find status. Zero communication. I found out that the sword had completed by way of my card being charged. I LIKE Albion, and I really like the sword, but the experience wasn't what I was lead to believe it was going to be when I ordered. Since then, Albion has moved out their wait times, which is a decent way of addressing the time vs. customer expectation issues, but didn't help me at the time. Would I buy an Albion again? Yes. But they have moved into my "see it in a year" category. I have three custom orders in progress right now. One of them has run late, and I have had to follow up. I have bought from them before, but this was the first custom. Wasn't expecting much, so, so far I am not horribly disappointed. Sword should be done next week. We shall see. Next one is with Ernie at Yeshua's. I have two projects done with Ernie so far, and I am quite satisfied. He did a great job, and does a great job of roughing out time lines and providing status. No complaints from me. Third custom is with another very well regarded and popular smith here. Put down $1,000 on the project, and so far things are clipping along. Communication was timely, and now I am in the "wait for status" stage while work is being done. I have some other projects planned, but a lot of this boils down to making sure that my targeted smiths are worth doing business with. I am pretty interested in checking out some of the Eastern Europeans smiths specifically because of the things mentioned in this thread. I already pinged Bill about this a time or two just to make sure I wasnt crazy before taking the plunges.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 11, 2014 14:49:04 GMT
I'd just like to send a shout out to my clients attending this thread for speaking out for me. I do pride myself on extensive communication and to always exceed expectations with my side of the job. I even have a client with whom I've exchanged (upon a quick count) no less than 900 emails (including sent and received) over time (you know who you are *ahem), some of which were casual but most conversational about the projects.
I'd also like to vouch for Jeffrey Robinson with whom I've had the pleasure of much business, such to the point that he's an integral part of my business. He's always on time and with solid communications. A quick count shows around 1600 emails back and forth between us.
And yes, there are thousands of emailers which I write detailed replies to and whom never reply back again. That's part of the job, fielding enquiries. You should have seen the wave that came when my last Master Sword was released (there is another coming) I do get a hefty non-refundable deposit from my booking clients (I offer a 7 day cooling off period), which ensures they are as serious about the projects as I am, and have found almost no drama when using this system. I do keep my job list to around 4 months booking to completion (or five when involving Jeffrey), partly by being very choosy about my projects, and partly by continually raising my prices, such that some of my earlier client's may be a bit put out, but if possible I do hope to still be on my alumni's Christmas/Tax Return wish lists and to do business again. I do always make space for projects for my past clients. :-)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 11, 2014 15:01:31 GMT
Just telling it like it is Brenno... of all the custom smiths I've ever worked with, you were not only the fastest... but also the most collaborative and communicative. This is HUGE because you make the customer feel involved and invested in the project in a way no other smith I have dealt with does. Its sad to me that I am one of the former clients who is now 'priced out' so that I can no longer afford you... :cry: but it also makes me happy to see you doing well... it means that hard work, honesty, professionalism and keeping your word can be rewarded in the industry... and what is good for you is good for your customers, because I know they are in good hands.
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Post by Deepbluedave on Apr 12, 2014 6:54:14 GMT
Well said Sean, that is the reason I own five Fable Blades and after this little snafu is all sorted, I hope to be ordering more.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 16, 2014 2:07:41 GMT
It's just sad to hear how many folk are getting bad service, or even ripped off out there. Once waiting times are outside of, say 8 months or so, I really think the client should see a red flag. But when Jeffrey and I both have our parts in a job, 6 months is not unreasonable. Thats only allowing 3 months each, plus shipping is half a month between us.
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Post by Arwyn on Apr 22, 2014 22:47:13 GMT
Agreed Brendan. I think the time frame is more than reasonable. I think the challenge becomes the wait + poor communication. Perfect example (unfortunately) would be the current situation with Atrims. I did find it interesting that you mentioned how you raised prices to control demand. I called that exact method out in the discussion around what happened with Angus, since he did not do that and got buried by demand as a result. I think custom swords as a whole are one of those small niche markets that very clearly show the impact of supply and demand. Prices rise over time due to external factors (raw materials, currency, shipping costs, ect) but the immediate impact of supply is still there. If that doesn't get managed, the wheels tend to come off the cart in an unpleasant manner. I think it is also interesting to see the split when you look at some well known smiths here stateside, and you look at some of the Europeans smiths. Or you for that matter. I would suspect that sooner or later, the negative comments would catch up with the smiths that dont do a good job on timelines an communications, but that still hasnt really played out... yet.. Oh, and one of these days you will get my tax return! John got it this year.
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Post by 14thforsaken on Apr 25, 2014 2:15:29 GMT
Brendan, you have always been the first name I mentioned if I am asked about custom makers. Great communication, fast services and excellent products. Only bad side is that as your standing has grown, you can charge more.
Oh well, I'll just have save up a little longer than normal for another Fable.
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Post by beastofwotan on Apr 26, 2014 14:14:24 GMT
This is a pretty informative thread. I don't know enough as a collector yet to know what I would want a custom maker to build for me, but I will at some point.
Question in regards to Castle Keep - What is Rob Miller's normal turn around time? I'm all about viking swords right now, and his viking swords all look phenomenal. Cheaper than most of Albion's Next Gen Vikings, too.
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Post by William Swiger on Apr 26, 2014 16:26:48 GMT
Basically with Rob Miller, you get put on his waiting list that can be a few months up to a year in my experience. No money is exchanged until the sword is completed. Always keep an eye on the exchange rate as sometimes, it is reasonable for the sword price and sometimes you have to bite the bullet. Dollar -vs- the Pound is never good. What you pay is the exchange rate when the sword is completed and quotes are in pounds of course.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 26, 2014 16:58:39 GMT
Rob Millers wait time is about 9 months currently I'm told.
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Post by Psychochink on Apr 30, 2014 1:13:21 GMT
I am an idiot, idiot, idiot. I remember when Brenno first started out his initial endeavours on the old SBG Boards and I kept talking myself out of commissioning a piece from him due to cost reasons. Now that I'm in a position to pay what he was charging back then, they've gone up 4-5 times his original prices.
Oh well, maybe someday.
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