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Post by William Swiger on Mar 1, 2014 16:39:49 GMT
Hello Folks,
Something I have been thinking about the last few weeks is the lack of custom sword or higher end production sword makers to come close to projected completion dates. This is pretty rampant across the board from my experiences. Fable Blades, Michael Pikula and Jeffrey Robinson have been pretty much dead on or ahead of schedule on some swords I have ordered. The rest of the customs I have ordered have not been the case. Some have ranged from a few months to well over a year. I can feel for you guys dealing with the Gus and Tried and True meltdown.
Some people will say it is alright as long as there is communication between the buyer and maker. I agree to a point unless that is the norm of the maker to repeatedly have to explain to all customers why their orders are late. Some makers have relieved themselves of the burden by just having a waiting list and when you come up in their queue, they will notify you. Some will want a deposit but most do not. I have done this but do not understand why I have to pay months to a year or so in advance for something that far into the future. I have paid a large deposit to have a sword made in a year or so, but the window has come and gone. The maker has currently started it to some degree but I almost cancelled the order.
Some makers are overextended in too many sword and non-sword related projects. They are jumping from one thing to another without concentrating their efforts to make their orders in a reasonable amount of time or on schedule. They cannot run a functional business. I think some of these people need to abandon taking custom orders and just make swords to sell to the public as they get around to making them. That way they can focus on their other endeavors without people waiting on an order.
Some people will say they don't care if the business practices of the maker are bad as the sword will be worth the frustration once in hand. In my experience, a custom or high end sword that has caused me frustration with passed deadlines or any quality issues becomes a sword I just cannot bond with. I can appreciate the sword but cannot thoroughly enjoy it as every time I hold it, I am reminded of the grief and the bad experience I had getting it. I have sold a couple of these but still have a few.
Once again, I understand life can throw some monkey wrenches at people sometimes and this is a given. I am talking about makers with systemic issues running a business. Have a waiting list vice taking orders with any projected completion dates. If you are always late on projected completion dates, maybe you need to double the given time to customers so you can maybe finish on time. If you are involved in too many sword or non-sword projects and cannot meet completion dates, go to a waiting list or just make models to sell to the public once they are completed.
What do you folks think?
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hhmoore
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Post by hhmoore on Mar 1, 2014 19:16:53 GMT
It's the same in the knife world - when I ordered my Randall Made knives, I understood that I was looking at about an 18 month wait...it took fully twice that long, and that was more than 10 yrs ago.) New orders are scheduled for completion in 4 yrs. The projected wait for a knife from Bob Dozier is currently 3 yrs; I don't know if they're good at making those deadlines; but it's tough to sign on for that kind of wait, regardless...especially as I'm getting older.
I placed an order with another maker, and was told it would be about a year...18 months later I've heard nothing from him; but I've heard through the grapevine that he's stopped taking new orders to catch up on his backlog. (I'll have to dig up his email address & drop him a line - frankly, I've lost interest in that piece & would prefer to tweak the order if he hasn't started.) While I commend him for recognizing that things were out of hand, I think he should have communicated with the customers that are still waiting (I doubt that I'm the only one that hasn't heard from him).
A 50% deposit is pretty common; though I've placed a few orders that requires full payment in advance.
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Post by junon on Mar 2, 2014 5:10:28 GMT
I have the same experience...
I ordered a blade (golok) from a well known local maker in a rural town here... Anyone in local blade forum community recommend him, so I decided to give a try.
Contacted him early last year and got no reply; finally got back to me (after 2-3 weeks - I forgot); Anyway... decided to get a semi-custom golok and was promised it would be done late August... 8 months wait time is not too bad so I placed the order. He asked for advanced payment so I did fully paid it (it's not too expensive - only $100 or so). Now the waiting time begin...
Somewhere in mid-March, he announced (on local blade forum) that he would have to raise his production unit price (knives, machete - the regular stuff) but would honor order placed before end of the month with the old price. So I placed 2 more orders for knives because I would like to take advantage of sale price. Production time is 3 weeks, I was told.
Oh well... now is March 2014 and none of my knives (nor golok) have been sent to my way... He totally missed the schedule and the latest estimate I got is sometimes in May this year...
What upset me was... the knives I had ordered was offered on sale in local online knives store as ready stock about two months ago! Somehow I felt cheated a little bit... Of course he told me that that's from the previous backlog and mine the next one in the batch...
I chose to go direct to the maker in order to support him; Rather than going through reseller (which would take some margin of the sale), I chose to help the manufacturer directly so he can make better margin and support himself better. Unfortunately I'm not sure if I want to continue with this route anymore in the future... The lack of communication and never ending delay doesn't seems to make it a worth endevour...
I can understand the nature of custom order... Delay is acceptable (to some degree)... However for regular, production pieces... it's not acceptable... It's like ordering from {Hanwei/A&A/Albion/Windlass,whatever} direct and was told to wait and be patient repeatedly (after they miss the deadline several times)... while at the same time you found out that KoA just posted the same items you are waiting under "New items in stock"...
Oh well... William and HHMore's post shown that this is a widespread problems... in US and anywhere else... (with exception for Eastern Europe smiths - they seems to treat this bladesmith profession as professional business - very fast response for any inquiry).
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Post by johnwalter on Mar 2, 2014 5:49:14 GMT
Well said,by one of the most honest,truthfull,and downrght standup human beings I have ever met here or anywhere for that matter.We need more like you good sir.
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Post by William Swiger on Mar 2, 2014 6:38:17 GMT
Like junon said, the Eastern European makers are very good on completion dates. I have bought several medieval swords from various makers in Eastern Europe and they were pretty much on target with delivery of products by completion dates. There was a couple that were late by a short period of time but not very late but I was notified in advance.
Surprising that these guys can get it right and many others cannot. They run their shops like a business. Maybe the competition there keeps them on their toes. Too many times I have had to ask the status of past due orders with those in North America instead of the maker notifying me of the status. I wonder if the lack of competition in the North American market contributes to the lackadaisical business practices encountered?
A couple of folks in past threads have said the best way to counter this is to vote with your wallet. You would not expect or tolerate substandard customer service in any other industry but it is tolerated in this small niche with many people being supportive regardless of the problems.
I still say that if the maker cannot meet deadlines on a regular basis, they need to go to a waiting list where they dedicate their time to making the product when the item comes up in their queue. No deposit until work is being started either. This will alleviate false projected completion dates. The other option is to make swords and sell them when completed without taking orders.
I know the majority of makers are not getting wealthy and some just make ends meet in this profession. Some realize they cannot merge their artistic talents into making blades for a living and move on to another profession or just make blades as a hobby. I respect these people greatly and their profession. I try to support as many as I can and have placed orders with some makers when they were having hard times to help out. I only ask that they run their business properly because as a consumer, I expect that.
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Post by Rabel Dusk on Mar 3, 2014 23:07:52 GMT
Arms and Armor have made 4 custom swords for me. They have all either been done on time, or have been completed maybe a month past the estimated finish.-- not bad. You usually have to wait a few months for them to get started on it, but you know that up front.
If you want a custom sword, I recommend that you get A&A to do it for you.
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Post by chrisperoni on Mar 4, 2014 0:30:11 GMT
Maybe it's not a bad idea to retitle this topic to reference to both makers who miss completion dates, and to those who usually stay on target? Specifics are a must in either regard - we need to state our own first hand experiences to keep things fair.
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Post by junon on Mar 4, 2014 4:55:19 GMT
Hi William,
About the Albion and A&A... KoA listed wait time for Albion product is about 3 months while A&A is about 3 weeks...
Does that number seem correct to you? I'm just curious because you mentioned both of them have been ahead of schedule. Might make me take a plunge to order something from both of them in the near future if the number listed is correct.
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Talon
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Post by Talon on Mar 4, 2014 5:04:28 GMT
I ordered a custom project in march 2011 .I've checked my correspondence and I've had no contact from the individual since october 2012.I've pretty much given up on it.When I do eventually order my heirloom blade I'll be ordering from someone with a proven reputation,or Rob Miller as he's actually within travelling distance.
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Post by William Swiger on Mar 4, 2014 5:06:29 GMT
I think Albion on KOA is now listed as 3-6 months. I have not pre-ordered an A&A from KOA and have no experience with the estimated 3-week completion dates.
I usually order directly from Albion as I get a 10% Vet discount. The usually come in prior to the max time they advertise. I had one run late but it was only one of about ten I have bought. Some come in much sooner. Sometimes when they are producing new models and have a large pre-order, regular orders slow down somewhat.
I have bought a couple A&A custom swords and production swords from Craig. All of those were on schedule or close to projection.
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Post by Robert in California on Mar 4, 2014 5:14:59 GMT
I ordered a semi-custom katana from Wang-katana2011 (Ebay). They were trying to do something new for them (my order). They ran about 1 month behind because they tried but could not make the blade as I wanted (a wide hamon on a thin mono-1095 blade). They did make me a longer, heavier version of their JP02 and one with one mekugi (and still a tight fitting tsuka and a full samegawa tsuka wrap, and a longer saya....and did not charge for their time and effort trying for the wide hamon on the mono 1095 (blades kept bending on the water quench).
So I can not fault them. And they do a nice kissaki.
So, I am happy with Wang-katana2011.
RinC]
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Post by William Swiger on Mar 4, 2014 5:21:00 GMT
One thing that bothers me is when a projection date passes by and you do not hear from the maker. I hate when I have to e-mail them for updates and new projection dates for completion.
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Post by Deepbluedave on Mar 4, 2014 6:58:16 GMT
I have about 12 custom projects at the moment, they range from a few months over to others that are over by 3 years now, am I happy about it? Not really but what can you do when you have payed 50% up front and the maker stops answering your emails asking for a deadline when they said it was a summer project, lying bastards.
I'm of the opinion that if a project goes over by 6 months the least they should do is offer a refund for any money paid in good faith. I know that I'm very weary of these delays and it has changed how I buy my swords, here are three makers that I have never had a delay with. Fable Blades - always on time and great communication and an Aussie to boot. Rob Miller - puts you on his waiting list then lets you know when you are up next, works well as no money changes hands till your job is started, then delivers a fantastic sword on time. JT Palikko - once again on a waiting list with no payment till your work is started, great communication and a great sword maker.
I won't name the one's I'm pissed at, not that they deliver a bad product just need better communication and be more upfront about delays, no one wants to have to chase a maker for an update if you have paid a deposit, and I agree with Bill about not bonding with a sword you have had issues with, takes a while for the anger to settle.
One last thing if I have a bad experience with a maker, I most likely won't buy from them again.
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Post by William Swiger on Mar 4, 2014 8:13:11 GMT
I currently have 2-custom swords on order and am on a couple waiting lists. The waiting list is cool as I think that is a better way to operate.
One custom that is late is from a maker I have purchased a few swords from in the past. I have never received a commission from him on time and they were all a few months to over a year late. He does not require any deposit which is good. I really like his products but this sword will be the last I order. I have to request the status vice being informed of delays.
The other is from someone I have not bought from before but is another great guy who makes some very nice swords and scabbards. After 20-months, I requested to cancel but he had started on some basic work on the sword and I kept the order open. He does require a deposit though. He e-mailed me today and being the stand-up guy he is, took 400.00 off the sword and scabbard package as a way of making up for the order taking so long. I respect him for that.
Bottom line is I think at this point in my collecting, I am done with full custom or semi custom purchases and will just focus on already made new, used and antique swords.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Mar 4, 2014 8:18:40 GMT
You can't be done with customs yet, I haven't got a chance to screw you over.
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Post by William Swiger on Mar 4, 2014 9:08:43 GMT
Alright - almost done. ;-)
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Post by brotherbanzai on Mar 4, 2014 15:09:51 GMT
I don't personally agree with business practices which end up putting clients in limbo over incomplete or unstarted projects, however, I can understand how a custom maker of anything might get themselves in that position.
It's not at all uncommon to spend several hours corresponding with someone about a custom project only to have them disappear when it's time for the funds to be sent. Imagine having a short waiting list with no deposits, It comes time to start the next one so you send out an email or make a phone call. No answer for a week so you move on to the next one. No answer again for a week. Now you are scrambling to fill a spot or be without income.
Again, as a custom maker of anything, you are likely used to the idea that at any time, work could dry up. To guard against that you may decide it's a good idea to require a large deposit and get a waiting list as long as possible. Got work lined up for the next year, or two, with deposits already paid. Great, now you can relax a bit and know you have an income set, maybe think about sending the kids to college, or even having kids to begin with.
Here in the States, we don't have universal health care, so if you are self employed, you'll be paying for your own insurance, unless you can get it through a family member. Maybe you are underinsured, or not insured at all. Then you get sick or have an accident. Now work stops because you are the work. Bills pile up, work piles up, things go unfinished or unstarted as you scramble for funds to pay the mortgage.
I can see it being pretty easy to get into a situation like that. I do what I can to avoid the possibility of something like that happpening to me. I require a decent sized deposit to hold a persons spot in line. This lets me know they are serious and that the rest of the funds will likely be there when the project is ready to start. (still not a guarantee as I have had people put down a deposit, I start the work, then they disappear. Now I've got a partially finished 'whatever' I can't do anything with. So I go ahead and finish it in the hopes they show up again to pay for it. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't) I also don't let the line get more than six months long. That way, if something were to happen to me, the number of people affected and the amount of time they would have to wait is limited. If someone wants work done and I'm already booked six months out, they can be on a waiting list with no funds exchanged. Sometimes they are ready and waiting when there is a spot open, sometimes they have have moved on to other things and that potential income to me is gone.
I consider myself extremely lucky to be able to make a living as a custom sword maker. I can't speak for other makers, but the only way it's possible for me to do this as a job is because I spent the whole of my adult life preparing to live the feast or famine existence of a professional artist. And I'm aware that at any time, work could dry up and I will have to move on to something else.
If it ever got to the point where I could have orders lined up for a year or two, have a few people working for me to do the grunt work, and run my sword making craft as a business, I'd stop doing it. For me personally, I do this because I love to do it, not because it's a job. If I wanted a job, there are a few other things I'm qualified to do that would make me more money as well as having paid holidays, sick days, an insurance plan, and no self employment taxes.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Mar 4, 2014 16:50:38 GMT
As far as a completely custom blade... from concept to finish... only Fable Blades has ever impressed me with being both very quick and true to their original time estimate. Also, communication was top notch with a constant back and forth, progress pics, questions and suggestions. There are a lot of great custom sword makers out there... and I've owned blades from many of them and have a lot of respect for their craftsmanship. However, as Bill suggested, many of them have questionable or outright aweful business practices... but Brenno with Fable Blades runs his business *LIKE* a business... and the costumer service is top notch for ANY business I've ever used, not just custom swords. Tho Brenno is self taught and sort of the 'new kid on the block' when it comes to making swords... his business practices are something all the other established makers would do well to learn from and emulate.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Mar 4, 2014 16:52:07 GMT
I also look forward to being screwed over by you in the future...
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Mar 5, 2014 23:27:30 GMT
Just place a order I will see what I can do.
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