Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 15, 2013 19:49:12 GMT
To MOK on page 4:
I think I can relate to Mr. Wallerstein, seems like a relaxed kinda guy.
The groin kicking sounds interesting too, so very much non PC, totally my territory. It makes me smile.
Would Guy Windsor's manual be online or is it for sale somewhere?
As for my reflexes, I have not been in training for quite a while, but I know what you are talking about. Some of that one never looses, it's too deeply imbedded, some of it is buried under layers of ,,stuff''. To do that kind of training one needs a sparring partner, but going through the paces on your own can be rewarding too. To have the reflexes come natural, be a part of you, takes time, without partner twice as long at least I guess if ever. The surprise element is not there and that's the crux.
Mr. Wallerstein and Mr. Windsor are on my list. Thank you.
About the Pilsen: Yep, like I said. Those Hanwei and Windlass blades are too flimsy to be called rapier blades, certainly in the context of this thread and the examples in the pictures of the ,,swords in engravings'' post. The Pilsen hilt though is rather good and I like it very much. The Brandenburg hilt is already a much maturer specimen. Give this a sturdier blade and re- plate the nickel ( it is possible to plate iron over nickle, I read somewhere) to remove the glitz and it would actually be quite nice. The Munich is good and I have the ,,How to bring the Munich up to spec'' thread, on myArmoury it was I believe. Mainly some thinning of some parts of the ports and bending the knuckle bow it was.
I lay off of Del Tins. I like the designs but to me the work is kind of shoddy. Looks seriously good from a distance but falls short close up.
At the moment the funds are lacking anyway and before I am going to place an order in the East, I will read every comment made about quality, waiting time and the rest of it. El Gur is new to me. What I saw of his/their work here on the forum made me droole.
The longsword is too wide I think. The result would be something like: grandson having grandpa's blade rehilted after the fashion. As you said, interesting indeed and certainly fitting in the proto rapier transitional world though. A suggestion to remember. Actually the Jian blade is ideal for stunts like this. length to order, hamon is funky on a rapier, tang of the one I used was A1 and of good length too, blade width fits and they are cheap compared to made to order Euro blades, even those from the East. Only the taper is off, more like CaT. Pilsen Cut and Thrust.
As to quality of the steel I see no problems either and sharp? They invented sharp!
But first the Baldric and tweaking.
MOK, thank's for your interest and response.
Edit: In the time it took to write my piece others have posted also.
Please to fit my post after MOK's. Thanks.
To Beowulf: Quote: Out of nowhere, without fanfare, it quietly pops into existence.
Yep, You wished it to be so, so....
Would you mind explaining the ,,retro'' in the Pilsen? Maybe you are right, but it is not clear to me.
To Chris Holzman: quote: its a practical method of drawing while moving.
What? Do you mean to say I had Maestro X's ears nailed to the church door for nothing? Well, he was getting too cocksure of himself anyway and strutting around and stuff, so there! :mrgreen:
Thanks for the explanation!
Mr.Thibault is on the list too.
Quote: Drawing a rapier really isn't any sort of magic. If you have a rapier such that the quillions/cross are at your navel, point on the ground, while you're standing with your feet together, you're pretty much in the ballpark for most Italian systems from 1600 to 1700, and what was shown in the video clip above should work out just fine.
Yes, I remembered that. I did this before I bought the Hanwei B.H.
It is too short, but I bought it anyway. I'll report back with the meassurements. Now I am typing like crazy to keep up with you guys.
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Post by MOK on Oct 15, 2013 20:06:58 GMT
It could be an old riding sword hilt fitted with a new rapier blade, yes. (George Silver would not approve!  ) All Windlass says is that they spotted it in an antique arms catalog. I've seen only a few swords with a reef knot guard like that, all of them cut-and-thrust weapons from earlier in the 16th Century (very similar to this custom reitschwert by Arms & Armour). So yeah, you could very reasonably fit it with a broader cutting blade instead of a longer and thicker thrusting one - the blade it's "born" with just isn't right for either style, though. And the grip is too long, either way... It's really one of the more frustrating Windlass offerings, IMO, the original model seems intriguing but the execution misses the mark - so very close to, yet still completely off the target. |
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 15, 2013 20:29:33 GMT
Don't you think it fits in with the transitional period, proto rapier? It seems you do, the hilt at least. Was reading too fast. I like the A&A but also think the blade a tad too heavy, too medieval? I have to do some image processing but the Pilsen with the much narrower Jian blade might just work and some fullers added into the mix.... Quote: IMO, the original model seems intriguing but the execution misses the mark - so very close to, yet still completely off the target. You are talking hilt here or the complete package? The A&A grip seems somehow thicker as that is the right word, more pronounced, something that is easely corrected on the Pilsen. Have to take a closer look at the P., but you guys are so fast in responding I cannot keep up. Edit: here is the Jian blade I gave the Cutlass:  Meassurements to follow. Do the printer thingy for full view. Here is the review: sbgswordforum.proboards.com/thread/13867Mine I ordered with hamon,longer blade and two hand grip. Also I married the fittings to the Cutlass blade....Chinese Cutlass! Edit: Scottish CaT with Jian blade: POB: 4" Blade length: 80 cm. Weigth without scabbard: 1400 grams. Width at guard: 30mm Width 10cm from tip: 2.3mm |
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Post by MOK on Oct 15, 2013 21:22:44 GMT
Not really - there was actually a bit of a revival of older, more cut-oriented blade types in the 16th-17th Centuries as personal armour continued to gradually fall out of fashion, piece by piece, and soft targets became increasingly common again.
Hmm, yes... or if you could find an affordable type XIX blade, somehow, somewhere...
Well, to start with, the Windlass grip is too long, which throws the whole weapon out of proportion. The A&A's grip looks thicker because it's shorter - and, yes, the A&A's overall shape is also sharper and more pronounced (not to mention more complex in every way), much closer to the historical pieces they're both modeled after.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 15, 2013 21:47:58 GMT
Regarding your ease of draw issue: stand in front of a mirror and draw your weapon 60 times a day for 4 weeks; you'll never conciously have to think about a draw again.
The pendrantry of this or any other human activity is intended to absorb the basics skillsets and make them automatic (field stripping a rifle in a trench, in the middle of the night, in the dark and rain).
Once you acquire these skillsets your mind can attend to higher order tactics and combat actions sure that your reflexes will get you where you want to be with little thought.
Sorry, no quick fixes, in walking into a brand spanking new weapon system. Gots ta learn the rules of the road. And as goofy as Rapiers seem at times it was a working system for 7 generations.
I owned a Winlass Pilsen. It is a very late, very light rapier. Somewhere in the sales literature was an illustration of two gypsies grappling into a stab carrying this sort. Blades only 4 inches longet than a foil I think. I don't recommend it. Get the Munich first. More like a period military alternative to the rapier. The x-man guard is quite a bit overbuilt compared to A&A, but that puts the balance in the hand so that it's fun to play with.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 15, 2013 22:02:26 GMT
Quote: Well, to start with, the Windlass grip is too long, which throws the whole weapon out of proportion. The A&A's grip looks thicker because it's shorter - and, yes, the A&A's overall shape also sharper and more pronounced (not to mention more complex in every way), much closer to the historical pieces they're both modeled after.
Get your point. For now though the Windlass is in a price bracked that I can afford. Shortening of the grip should not be problematic. Metal hilt parts cannot be altered that easy.
Right. Well, I am closing my shop. Have to work tomorrow.
Thanks for all the answers and insights. Good night.
Cheers, Ulahn.
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Post by Beowulf on Oct 15, 2013 22:03:54 GMT
So very very true Dave.
The Munich is probably my next late period purchase. It will be an excellent project, very worthy of some basic improvements.
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Post by MOK on Oct 15, 2013 22:22:29 GMT
Yeah, I can dig it. Personally, I'd be tempted to remake the Pilsen into a longsword.  |
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 15, 2013 22:26:56 GMT
Okay, one last post before I hit the sack. Thanks Dave, I get the picture. As for the Pilsen, I like the hilt, as stated a few times before. Those blades not so. Like you said, not rapier blades at all, too flimsy. Somewhere in my files I have the tuning post for the Munich, might have been someone from myArmoury. Maybe it is linked in the review of the Munich on that site. They liked it in a way. Found it. Here is a piece where improvements are discussed: www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... sc&start=0 To Mok: Longsword heh? Mind if I take you up on that tomorrow? |
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Post by MOK on Oct 15, 2013 22:46:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2013 2:29:19 GMT
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 16, 2013 5:45:39 GMT
Good morning all.
Beautiful XIX's. All in the Wallace Collection. Greedy Bas%£rd.
Very nice, the number 7. Found a blade width of about 32.22mm, say 30mm.
And 3.5 pounds? What did these people build them with. Air?
My Scottish Jian does 3.1 pounds with a blade of 80 cm. Luckely a lot of that sits in the hilt, but still...
Did the meassurement navel to ground. Get 115 cm or 45.27" So this nr7 would fit me very well. Finding a modern made blade like that in the wild will be near impossible. The windlass English two hander has the length, but you will be filing yourselves silly.
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Post by MOK on Oct 16, 2013 8:37:01 GMT
Actually, yes, kinda. It's just good engineering, including effective use of negative shapes (i.e. air!) to shave off excess material. Note how all the bars of the hilts vary in cross-section along their length, being almost always flat (as opposed to Windlass's round stock), often with convex or concave or ridged surfaces to maintain optimal rigidity with minimal mass (of course, it looks good, too) and never larger than they need to be at any given spot. The blades are aggressively beveled and fullered and tapered in two dimensions, balanced by reducing mass towards the point rather than adding more at the hilt. There's no needless steel anywhere. That's what makes them light. Yeah, I don't know where you'd get a type XIX blade without splurging on an Albion or going custom, and either would be so expensive you might as well have them make the entire sword from the ground up. Oh, wait, you could still enter Albion Europes's "Sword Shadow" contest! Not that I'd advocate chopping up the Kern for this, but hey... |
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 16, 2013 12:21:47 GMT
To MOK: I think I'll decline the invitation.
What you say about engineering is for me an eye opener.
I hope being a newbe will be accepted as an excuse for my superficial way of looking at hilt building. If things continue to go in this direction, I am afraid I will have to sell all my Windlasses and Hanwei's and start from scratch, since I may start seeing all the faulty bits. From coveted items they may turn into objects of continuous and rising vexation. Auch.
To Pinotte: This picture you found is a very nice surprise indeed. Thanks for sharing.
The way I see it, it seems to give the impression not of drawing, but rather pushing the sword out of the scabbard.
One of the moments of discomfort I have when drawing, is at the highest point of the draw.
Because I hold the grip in the hammer position when drawing, my wrist is forced to bend and the stupid thing can only bend so much.
The longer the blade, the more bending, ergo the more discomfort.
Looking at the picture, the man's wrist is straight and in line with the blade and length of arm + wrist is exploited to the full. Very clever and obvious, amounting to genious. It Looks like the capacity some people display , when confronted with a problem, to simply turn things around, is not in my toolkit where swords are concerned. It makes me want to say: oh, b^gger.
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Post by MOK on Oct 16, 2013 12:53:48 GMT
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing! It's not all bad, though! With a little more knowledge you'll start seeing the good things among the bad, too. I still love my New Coustille and German Bastard Sword, even with the latter's complete failure at reproducing the Wallace collection original (Windlass started by mistaking the blade length for the overall length, and it goes downhill from there). They have faults and flaws and rarely quite hit the mark they were aiming for, but many of them are just fine in their own right (e.g. the GBS isn't the two-hander it was supposed to be, but it's still a pretty nice phat bastard) and many more (like the Pilsen) make for good and affordable project fodder. And some are just plain good (if not remotely perfect), like the Type XIV. All of them take some work, re-wrapping the grip at the least, but I don't mind - it's good practice, and they're cheap enough I won't be ruined if I screw up. The real danger here is to your wallet, when you start seeing the real reasons behind the higher prices of Albion or Arms & Armour, let alone good custom smiths, and start to seriously think up justifications to spend that kind of money... Bah, it's just experience, it comes with time and practice and learning. We all start out as total n00bs! |
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 16, 2013 18:14:27 GMT
Well, I will not easely give up on my old model Windlasses. It took some hunting the get hold of them. Like the military rapier:  and the sword of Oran (Venetian infantry sword):  Novara:  the Italian HaH:  and the German HaH:  The Italian is heavy as hell, POB is way out, yet I like it. As to the German Bastard, I know about the blade length problem. Before I got hold of the Novara, I made the design of the German Bastard hilt to be put upon the blade of the English two hander. Little too long in the blade compaired to the Wallace, but with the longer grip I had in mind it could have been nice. Then came the Novara and so I put the project on ice. The Novara has a sorta metal grip under the leather. Replacing this would call for a very dense and heavy type of wood, like ebony or something. I do not know why they did this. To pull back the POB? Or safety or both? Enigma as long as I do not change it and see what happens. And I still do not have all of the oldies on the list and I missed out on the Rheinfelden because of epic stupidity. So to go shopping for an Albion is not in the books. Maybe this El Gur would qualify. See the El Gur topic somewhere in this section. I like what I see, pending a review. Edit: Last week I saw the Oran in an engraving or painting, I forget, somewhere and with ray skin on the grip, under the brass inlay. Not that it wil make the sword any beter, but I like the idea and hope to do the same in the near future. Have to order a lot of the stuff anyway. And the baldric. Again no sword this month, chucks. |
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Post by Beowulf on Oct 16, 2013 18:35:37 GMT
I wouldn't give up on the Windlass pieces. I haven't. But to compensate I'm really incredibly picky about what I purchase and how much I pay.
Their problem is the lack of the dimensional blade thickness distal taper and that they create reproductions without enough initial information. Oh, and their pieces need to be taken apart and hilted properly. But they make so many different models and have a slowly ever-changing line. I get tempted at least once a year by something they come up with. I loathe myself because of that sometimes.
I used to own that German H+H. A fast sword. Blade was really flat. The cross was too flimsy for use- not that I am going to get into a duel anytime soon.
Strange that the Novara has a metal grip. I've seen very servicable plastic grips that they have made. (Keep in mind I use these in HEMA stuff, so a tough plastic is better than a broken wooden handle to me)
cheers
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 16, 2013 19:22:33 GMT
The only Windlasses that are tempting me are the oldies. They had better detailing and more atractive designs. Some have real distal taper too!
And for the money some are pulling their weight far above what one pays for them. That English two hander I spoke about went through the wringer in the hands of some HEMA people and they liked it and used it too and afterwards still liked it. To me this signals a good deal and a very, very good deal when looking at the price Windlass askes for it. As for the cross of the German HaH being too flimsy, well at least it's made of iron and not brass or stainless and I somehow think it will stand up to a lot of abuse. Could be wrong on that though, especially where HEMA is involved. ( Heavy Metal Anarchy ?)
I think the metal grip must be some literaly ,,undercover'' counterweight.
By the way, I did the pushing not drawing thing depicted in Pinottes picture with my Hanwei German Bastard and it all worked very well.
I chose the GB as a medium sorta long and not prone to killing my feet if anything would go wrong. Next step is doing it with the Novara.
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Post by MOK on Oct 16, 2013 19:46:17 GMT
Personally, I see Windlass's German Hand-and-a-Half as sort of the passable cheapo version of Arms & Armor's #081 German Bastard Sword or the LUTEL 15024 Hand-and-a-half sword. Nothing wrong with that! Affordable yet halfway decent is what this site is all about. As for the flimsiness of the guard, look at those narrow spots:  I assume they're meant to sort of, kind of, vaguely emulate the twisted decoration one sees on most historical swords of this style (and on both of the other reproductions I linked to), but the grooves are so wide and deep they create serious weak spots. Hell, those grooves are pretty much the reason I don't own this sword, I just don't care for how they look at all. |
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 16, 2013 20:34:09 GMT
To me it looks that they tried to do Jewelling, like they did sparingly on the rings, but that's not important. Looking at this the practical way, you surely have a point. I have it standing next to me now and the quillons and the rings do look too thin. I understand the designer's notion something had to be done at that point on the quillons, without the decorations it would not work, but they went overboard with the dept of filing, as you stated.
There was not much body to file anyway. Maybe they would have been better of had they added some material at those points. Still, for the €199 I paid for it I say amen and take it, warts and all. A smith could weld some kind of rings in there or first fill the cavaties and than weld a smaller or longer piece of thick walled tubing over those spots. I accept it and like the work on the knobs and pommel. But again, you have a point. For a warsword this cannot be. For a hunter this should be okay.
Edit: Is the Lutel link for the ,,good'' Lutel? I allways mix them up.
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) All Windlass says is that they spotted it in an antique arms catalog. I've seen only a few swords with a reef knot guard like that, all of them cut-and-thrust weapons from earlier in the 16th Century (very similar to 
