Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 11, 2013 18:19:35 GMT
Hi all. I am collecting info about rapiers and what I call ,,proto rapiers'' as shown in print 1 of my post,, Swords in Engravings'': viewtopic.php?f=12&t=18831The object is to obtain such information as to be able to design a sword as in print 1 and have it made. Now to the question I have. Reading this piece: www.salvatorfabris.org/WhatIsTheRapier.shtmlwhere it is stated that the typical rapier blade, which I translate as to be meaning the average rapier BLADE, not the entire thing, meassured 40" to 42" in the age of Fabri. I am a guy with long arms. Buying shirts is a drag. Even with my long arms drawing a 40" blade free from the scabbard is not possible without considerable effort and grotesque contortions. I would have the opposition die from laughter or they would have gutted me before I had the blade half way out. Yet the facts seem indisputable. And the carrying rigs I see do not seem to make it any easier too. Also the, disputed here and there, fact that people of the time were somewhat shorter, ergo had shorter arms, does not help. So, what am I doing wrong? Should I stick with a shorter blade? Notice that in the edit under my post I mentioned that after doing the math, the blade from print 1 would be 33.6" long were I the poor guy laying there. Easy to draw, even when hanging straight down, as in the print. But 40 to 42" ? Takes chimpansee arms? |
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Post by KentsOkay on Oct 11, 2013 18:30:47 GMT
I've mostly seen draws by grasping the scabbard which is suspended on a frog, giving you that extra distance to clear the tip. This is how I see SCA Rapier fighters draw, and I just presume that how everyone draws. Don't have a scabbard to draw from yet... or a rapier to draw from it for that matter, but when I do I will update accordingly  |
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 11, 2013 18:46:06 GMT
Making a sneak attack with a 46 inch rapier is sort of out of the question.
Most rapier carrier suspend the sword in an angle just above horizontal. Grasping the scabbard in the non sword arm and turning it out, so that you draw more or less across your body seems the easiest way of doing it. PS: If ti sort of feels like you're not quite there in you draw you can pull the scabbard back a bit with your non draw hand to get a little bit more clearence. Works for me.
( A little video would be appropriate right now, but it's raining rhinocerousouses and elephants in the greater Washington area at the moment; a condition likely to continue until the collective leadership of my silly assed govt gets their heads out of their aspidistras :mrgreen: Not mentioning politics: it was a weather report. :roll: :lol: )
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 11, 2013 18:59:25 GMT
I have several with the ,,modern'' blade length of about 93 cm or 36.5". With a little pulling back of the scabbard they are easy to draw. Like I said: a blade length of 40 to 42" is something else entirely. This was meant for KentsOkay. Dave: Does that imply one has to bend the blade to a certain extent? Quote: ( A little video would be appropriate right now, but it's raining rhinocerousouses and elephants in the greater Washington area at the moment; a condition likely to continue until the collective leadership of my silly assed govt gets their heads out of their aspidistras :mrgreen: Not mentioning politics: it was a weather report. :roll: :lol: ) Ofcourse Dave, no doubt about it. :mrgreen: I am amazed at the display of flexibility of your mind, switching from rapiers to the weather in nano seconds. Wow! Was it you, by the way, who held a rapier straight up in a thunderstorm? |
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 11, 2013 19:12:06 GMT
That's not my experience. I do find it best to grasp the sword below the quillons while drawing. Trying to set my hand in the quillons does seem to not work on a long blade.
A bastard sword is easier as you can pull from the pommel side to draw.
( There is another option with frog and straps; just pull the sword and sheath off the carrier and pull the sheath off to the ground...e voila. :mrgreen: Unless the sheath gets stuck in the carrier... :oops: )
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 11, 2013 19:29:32 GMT
Okay, I'll do some tests. Sounds reasonable to me. Grasping below the quillons should give enough slack. Single minded as I am, I was stuck with taking the grip as a starting point. As said in Southpark: ,,We learned something today''. Thanks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2013 2:25:39 GMT
Hi all,
a quick questions: by 40-42' blades, do they mean the whole blade including the ricasso part that is concealed by the guard or just the naked blade that makes contact?
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 13, 2013 2:55:16 GMT
Yet another reason rapiers are a pain. There is no clear standard and most historic authors even tend to generalize this point. I always use point to end of the guard, not to the quillons. When I bought my Darkwoods the Wilsons also measured in this manner, thus my first rapier has a 42 inch blade. ( An SCA tickler ).
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 13, 2013 9:09:43 GMT
Pinotte, stop it! You give me a headache. So, I did some test drawing with the Hanwei bonehandle. 1. I have to grab the grip to be able to make the turn to clear the last 4" of the blade. With 1 or 2 fingers over the quillons my hand gets tangled up in the basket, cannot make enough of a turn to clear the blade. 2. During all of this, my left hand is holding the scabbard as far away as possible. 3. I have not seen any rig that gives enough slack to be able to hold the scabbard that far away from my body, to enable me to clear the blade. 4. Ergo: Either one needs a rig that enables the easy removal of the still sheated rapier to do the drawing and to discard the scabbard to be able to draw a main gauche, ( Dave's idea ) or, reading what Fabri had to say and trying to make a picture in my poor head: All of the above is an exercise in futillity since the rapier was used by those well off gentlemen who like formal situations anyway, like duels, on the lawn, after sherry, so there would be enough time to unbuckle various belts and do the drawing all in good time, do the duel and be home for gin and tonic and cigars before the first gong. 5. Finale: rapiers are not really fighting weapons, due to their outrageous length, more of a formal dress attire and a ( fallic) symbol of status. Hence the often very fancy hilts. The length and all this unsheating business does not make a for a weapon to be used in real combat, either in the field or in the city with it's narrow streets, well, allies really. In all of this I keep seeing that funky Spanish rapier rig with all of those straps and buckles. Totally useless in real life. Man make-up. Extra final note: the degeneration of the rapier into the small sword makes it clear I think, what the rapier really was all about. Just a thought. Edit: to some, the above may sound final, overbearing, pertinent and such. Not meant to be such. Just try to formulate my thoughts, while writing. No expert me! Edit 2: Following this line of thought it seems to me the cut and thrusters were the last of the breed of real combat weapons of this branche. Edit 3: Italians invented this rapier thing. Also they like opera. That is what they are all about. Connect the dots. Time for my morning coffee. Chiao! |
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 13, 2013 10:14:46 GMT
  :lol: There is a wanted poster on you in every SCA kingdom. ( Though you never actually see an SCA video with a sheathed rapier. Go figure. ) You need a shorter blade. I don't have that much trouble; but I have arms like an ape. Rapiers may have got overlong; but so did Type XVIIIa longswords. 35 inches for those are considered rather short. As for the dig on Opera: Gluck, Telemann and Handel got rich on said Italian deviance. Quite some time in the 18th Century Opera was banned in the Papal States; whether it was considered too vulgar or too German I don't know. :mrgreen:
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 13, 2013 10:46:49 GMT
Quote: Quite some time in the 18th Century Opera was banned in the Papal States; whether it was considered too vulgar or too German I don't know. :mrgreen:
Probably both, plus scantily dressed ladies doing ballet, like in Amadeus, did not help either. Though on second thought, the Nuntius was not exactly averse to ladies. Behind the scenes that is.
As for the SCA dudes: yooh hoo, your welcome! Watch your mascara dearies! :mrgreen:
Edit: Mascara dig: Go look at VATEL, the movie about the Sun King, with Gerard Depardieu.
See what sort of creatures were sporting court swords (? in 1671 ?) and what they could do with these.
Vicious little blythers they were!
Liked that movie though!
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Post by Beowulf on Oct 13, 2013 14:38:47 GMT
I just got a rapier, something passably accurate, though I do not want to overstress that. It has been said to be alright, and seems alright (Windlass Musketeer).
First off, I have no idea what I am talking about with these.
I read once that a certain much-maligned HEMA school/organization "director" went to a blade show and got to see the new Hanwei rapier prototypes. They were too short. Upon talking to the owner or a high level Hanwei rep he was told that since they could not figure out how to draw a full-length rapier that they instead chose to cut them down to something more manageable for the draw. The "director" explained the trick to drawing a full length rapier and Hanwei was all "duh, okay" and happily went away to make long, full sized rapiers reproductions. I don't know. I read this somewhere.
I've got some data on 53" rapiers. I think a few got bigger than that, but it seems 53" might be the upper limit of use. Past that might be novelty?
I would not say they are not fighting weapons. I will say several things though about my impressions. Comparing them to any and all cutting/thrusting swords I have they seem to be entirely different animals. I am a bit frustrated. The balance of a cutting/thrusting weapon is gone totally with the one I have, which makes sense with this piece. This cannot really cut very well, but I would not want to get hit with a cut from it anyways.
To me, these fully developed rapiers are micro-spears. They are estocs. The fight is totally different with them. They also require different muscles to use properly than anything I am used to. You keep the blade/weapon aligned with your forearm except when parrying/cutting another cut out of the way. So when using them as a thruster the wrist seems to be mostly ignored. I know that in the low guard (whatever it is called) sometimes the wrist is bent to put the blade into the opponent's face as a provocation.
The footwork seem to be directly tied to the the rapier's use. In the earlier stuff I use the footwork to move myself around, and I use it at key times to put a lot more power into the strike. The thrusting (foigning) rapier seems like the whole damned thing is driven entirely by bodily movement. Makes sense though. Too bad I have a bum knee. I might have to sell this eventually.
So I play with this rapier for a while and then purposefully use my most ungainly and heavy sword in my arsenal and suddenly I am thoroughly enjoying it.
I have no idea how the long ones were drawn. I'll bet John P knows though. He is at a good HEMA school, and though I think he does earlier sidesword stuff he has probably ran into this info.
cheers!
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 13, 2013 16:09:34 GMT
Quote: Too bad I have a bum knee. I might have to sell this eventually.
As for the bum knee: sorry to hear that.
As for the rest: Me, me, me, me, me.
I would be truly interested.
The CaT swords I used as an example of swords that had considerable length but could be drawn by me as far as the CaT's I have represent the breed.
With the scabbard at a static point in a rig, at the hip, drawing of a rapier is just not possible. Dave suggests to disconnect the sheated rapier from the rig. That works up to a degree. For me a 35-36" blade length meassured from the ricasso is the limit ( Hanwei bone handled ).
Much like the Hanwei people I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how to draw even longer ones, most certainly from a static point.
Would be very interested in what Mr. John P. has to say, certainly.
As for fighting weapons: pretty useless in the field, in the melee, combat.
They were not military spec.
I see them as dueling weapons first. Stories about burgers using them as some kind of protection against robbers, I for one, take with a grain of salt. A CaT would be much better I think. Drawing the d£$**mned thing remains an enigma.
I see it this way: a lot of people are sporting sunglasses these days. Not for use, really just to make an impression and showing off the brand.
Rapiers? Same thing. Quite popular at the time, made fashion statements all over the place, ,,mine is longer than yours'' etc, etc. Did not matter whether one could actually draw it. That was not the point! To be seen with Signora XXX at the Scala, with one's rapier firmly sheated! Now, that's what it was all about.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 13, 2013 17:20:57 GMT
:lol: The story of the two blind men and the elephant.... Rapiers were serious arms for 200 years. Disregard the dandy aspect. I'm not sure what this means? The sheath should be mounted at the throat. If you aren't doing that it's no wonder you don't have room to draw...  I'm inspired to take the vid cam outside, but the rain in Spain has left and gone to Virginia, Oh the rain in Spain... :roll: Ya know what I mean... :mrgreen: |
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Post by greypilgrim on Oct 13, 2013 17:40:59 GMT
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Elizabeth 1 had a law passed to limit rapier blades to a yard in length. Blades were allegedly up to 5 feet long at court and were such a total nuisance that she finally said enough is enough and ordered them broken off. Supports the idea of sword length as status symbol/man jewelry.
I think this was in Hank Reinhardt's book, but I'll have to look it up.
Dave, nice picture and great explanations.I have no idea how an SCA rapier would be drawn as I only see them come out of the gear bag and get dropped on the floor with never a scabbard in sight.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 13, 2013 17:56:10 GMT
Don't safety rules in SCA require so much guarding in the tip that a scabbard is really out of the question?
A 42 inch blade and a 9 in hilt puts you over 4 ft. I'm comfortable with a 40 inch blade. I can't concieve of anything longer being of any value to the user except for pokeing the Duchess of York in the arse at court and causing a hell of a row...
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 13, 2013 18:11:58 GMT
Quote: I'm not sure what this means? The sheath should be mounted at the throat. If you aren't doing that it's no wonder you don't have room to draw... Thanks for the photo. That explanes exactly what I mean. The scabbard is static, cannot be moved much, because of the rig. Now try to draw the blade. For me the best way is to remove the scabbard from the rig to give me leeway I need. Thus the left hand with the scabbard goes to the back, the right hand with the grip goes up and to the right. I cannot draw the 36" blade when it is in the position you show here, static. And my arms are longer than the mean. Quote: I can't concieve of anything longer being of any value to the user except for pokeing the Duchess of York in the arse at court and causing a hell of a row... Ah, that's what all the fuss was about then, last night. Edit: Tried it again. Now I have a bend shoulder and me neck hurts. Immitated the position of the scabbard mouth from the photo and pulled the blade out. Somehow ended up on tiptoe, like that is of any help. Gripping hand went almost straight up. Blade came clear. Barely. 37" would still be a problem though. |
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 13, 2013 18:22:48 GMT
I gotta get a vid up...
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 13, 2013 18:36:53 GMT
Ah, we youngsters, Sire. When we have our teeth into the prey, we will not be shaken off....
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Post by Llyren on Oct 13, 2013 21:11:28 GMT
The scabbard in that photo can move quite a bit. It is not a static mount or tied down to the hip. That scabbard hangs on a strap from the shoulder.
Here is another way to describe it.
Hold your rapier in the scabbard out in front of you. Left hand on scabbard, right on hilt. Moving both your hands to the outside remove the blade from the scabbard. Should be easy as your wingspan should be pretty close to your height. Rinse and repeat a few times. Then try the same motions at your side.
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:lol: 
