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Post by sweetcostarica on Aug 19, 2013 22:11:59 GMT
Just a note on handles. I have had five (5) over 100 year old Gurkha Army Kukris with hidden tangs (no pins) and the handle to blade fit is outstanding. Totally solid. You do get loose handles sometimes but I have confidence in the Nepali craftsmanship in this area just from these rare old antique examples.
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Post by Timberwolf on Aug 19, 2013 22:40:18 GMT
OK, I'm busy with some school stuff and surfing for more khuk info at the same time when I see this on one of the military weapons sites: weaponsman.com/?p=9982#The frikkin' Brits are doomed to internal collapse. Poor bastards. At least this turned out well for the fine young Gurkha in question. Spread this to other khuk boards. I'll see ya later on, I better get something accomplished here. :lol:
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Post by Pogo4321 on Aug 20, 2013 1:19:34 GMT
You might want to check out John McCurdy's line of kuks. I believe the blades are made by KHHI, but they have his own more modern handle designs. Try searching for McCurdy kukri on ebay and you should find them. The one I have is comfortable in hand.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 20, 2013 4:03:14 GMT
All this has made me get all curious about the kuks I currently have. I'm only going to bother with the models I believe to be of Nepal origin, so excluding the aforementioned CS LTC. Here's an old photo of the lot, including the mini, which I think I'll also leave out as irrelevant here: (Edit: Stupid image formatting thingy; for those unfamiliar, right-click -> open/view in new tab/window) (I really need to update that photo; I think I must have taken it with my last cell phone or something, it looks horrid) Anyway, starting with the smaller, some measurements: Blade length (straight line): 254 mm/10 inches Blade width at inward curve: 32 mm/1.25 inches Blade width at "belly": 48 mm/1 7/8 inches Blade thickness at "corner": 5 mm/1/5 inch Blade thickness at grip: 6 mm/0.23 inches (sorry for the switch to decimals, too weird a fraction) Grip length (top of ferrule to pommel cap, the whole thing): 123mm/5 inches Point of balance: (really difficult to figure, but about) 40mm/1 5/8 inches (from top of ferrule) Weight (without scabbard): 391 grams/12.7 oz Feels kind of light in hand, to me. Grip is pretty much the ideal size for my hand, which is a bit on the large side with a palm width of about 3 3/4 inches, though I used a more relaxed "slipped" grip on kuks and most knives, so it turns out longer, up to about 4 1/2" or so. Could I fight with it? Sure, just as easily as with any knife. It's light, maneuverable, and quite quick, if I may say so myself. Would I use it as a field knife? Eehh...probably not. Just doesn't feel that substantial to me. I'm sure it could take it, but I'd worry every time. Onto the sirupate, from KHHI: Blade length (straight line): 368 mm/14 1/2 inches Blade width at inward curve: 31 mm/ 1 1/4 inches (give or take) Blade width at "belly": 41 mm/ 1 5/8 (can a sirupate be said to have a "belly," per se? Blade thickness at "corner": 10mm/7/16 inch Grip length: 153 mm/ 6 inches Point of Balance: 122 mm/ 5 inches (yikes) Weight: 797 grams/1 pound 12.1 oz Feels pretty darn heavy, but not unmanageable. The grip is really big, considering I like to choke up to counter the forward balance, gripping right at the ferrule. This grip makes it very easy to move around, but slipping to the bottom might benefit toward chopping force, but I don't like how pointy the pommel is so I try to avoid it... I think the biggest part of the chop is in keeping the hand mostly open right up to the moment of the strike, and quickly closing the grip, giving the knife that extra swing and acceleration just before impact, and ultimately it's just more comfortable to do this away from the pommel. Which is kind of why it may be a good thing that the grip is so long, at least for me. Could I fight with it? Sure. I can swing it fairly easily with the choked grip and it turns with a snap, the forward balance almost disappears while it's moving but would devastate on impact with the poor fella that made me swing it at him... Luckily "knife fights" are not long, drawn out things, so fatigue would only be an issue if I survived more than a few. Would I use it as a field knife? Absolutely. I'd sworn there was a video of its previous owner wreaking havoc with it on the old-old forum...but can't find it. Oh well. Anyway, it's definitely big enough for just about any task I can think of. But would I use it as a daily tool? Nah, too big. Do I respect them both as representatives of the wide, wide range of kukris? Yes. Do I want more kuks? Yes. Can't decide if I should finish up KHHI's "Villager" collection or start grabbing some antiques first. Wouldn't mind a tulwar-hilted version, or a nice Hanshee. Speaking of, why is nobody making hanshee for the modern market? I love their curve, and need one. Anyway, blah blah khives and stuff. Don't think I'll ever try anything by HI unless I can get a good price on one second-hand, same for Tora. I just don't have that kind of money to toss out on experiments... Yet I'd spend triple that on antiques just for that sake alone. Speaking of, I once compared my sirupate to a large-ish antique Afghan pesh kabz and despite the latter having a 7-8" larger blade, the weight was only a few ounces different. Thought that was amusing. The pesh is definitely a fighting knife, even at two feet long, but even still it's big and heavy. I like big and heavy. Then again, I am big and heavy, at 6'4" and 220 lbs, so I'm probably biased. Unfortunately for HI, they don't suit my aesthetics and their prices are well beyond my budget or I'd own a few already. KHHI balances out nicely for me, and what I hear of Tora ("super light and thin") kind of turns me off...but hey, we've already done the whole "personal preference" thing, haven't we?
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 20, 2013 5:28:48 GMT
I have 2 of the Cold Steel LTCs they are my favorite rough duty brush knives. Have the SK5 kukri too really like it alot. Better handling than the military kukris you get else where.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 20, 2013 5:45:00 GMT
Eh, different strokes. I don't like mine at all. Just feels wrong and I can't stand the stupid coating, and am too lazy to take it off. The rubber grip is not comfortable, either.
I haven't had a chance to handle Cold Steel's other kuks, but I just don't like the look of 'em. Not about to spend $200-500+ to figure out if they feel any better than they look, but I'm glad some folks out there are happy with them.
Has anybody mentioned the kuks from ACC/MRL? They're dirt cheap and ugly as sin, but I hear they do all right.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 20, 2013 6:07:11 GMT
Get out and really use them side by side you opinion might change. The LTC will out cut the military kukri, The coating will wear off with use. Seen too many broken kukris from Nepal, any time you are using used leaf springs you run the chance of stress cracks you can't see until they break.
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hhmoore
Member
Sneaking around once in a while
Posts: 656
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Post by hhmoore on Aug 20, 2013 6:57:57 GMT
I was waiting for mine to arrive before mentioning McCurdy, but as long as it's been done...that was the option I went with for my first (only?) kukri.
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Post by Timberwolf on Aug 20, 2013 7:47:10 GMT
Some interesting posts, people, right on! Just a quick note to Random and Fallen: I wondered when someone would bring up the Cold Steel stuff and the Khukuri-Like Objects (KLOs). :lol: Well, most of the American made stuff doesn't even qualify as a khukuri, although the CS stuff comes close. The KLOs, like the LTCs and stuff? No, they are machetes at best. As are the Gerber, Ontario, KaBar, etc. KLOs. None of that stuff is relevant as far as discussing real khuks, but we can bring them up occassionally and laugh at them. Although the LTCs are great brushbusters! Cold Steel "kukris"? Hmmm. That's a tough one. We're discussing REAL khuks here. Although they are khukuri-shaped, I'll never consider them to be anything more than another KLO. Fallen, I'll respectfully disagree with you. My buddy was very proud of his CS Sanmai "gurkha kukri". (For everyone else, his is a 12" 627g knife.) He bought it on Gunbroker for $300 or so. :roll: Maybe not so proud anymore, though. A couple of weeks ago, we went into a hacking contest on one of my 10" chunks of log, his $300 12" CS vs. my $150 14.5" HI Villager Sirupana. Granted, the HI is 215g and 2.5" larger than the CS, but with all of the CS hype and his bragging, we called them equal. Bottom line? He even tried using tried mine and it still kicked the CS' butt. He's now looking at the KHHI stuff, he doesn't like the high prices at HI. He's an old Ranger, and he's in great shape, so something in the 800g-1000g range will fit him. There's a definite difference in the quality of the blades. His CS is a nicely finished SK-5 steel, which is similar to American 1080, and mine is an ugly, rough, hand-beaten, seasoned 5160. BUT! Mine stayed just as sharp, if not sharper, than that expensive CS. That's proof that the Kamis know how to temper a blade just as well as a major American blademaker. So, take that for what it's worth. Me? I'll stick with the real thing at half the price. IMNSHO, genuine Nepalese khuks are much better than a CS KLO. Oh, and as far as possible hidden microfractures and stress lines in seasoned 5160? I'll take my chances, although I'd bet that HI will break in a stress/destruction test before that CS will. That CS is 8.0mm thick at the curve, and mine is 8.5mm, so they are almost the same. But let's be realistic, it is much better steel. EDIT: My views on Cold Steel kukris are just my opinion. Sorry if I sounded harsh. Hope I didn't offend ya, Fallen!
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Post by Timberwolf on Aug 20, 2013 8:05:47 GMT
Hi again, Nilfgaardian. OK, on to combat/fighting khuks. This is a very subjective issue, by nature. The bottom line in figuring this all out is best expressed by Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry Callahan, LOL! "A man's gotta know his limitations." I'm going to address this by telling you how I found the "perfect" weight for MY fighting khuk. Some people might think I'm getting WAY too analytical here, but just remember this. This is about determining the best WEAPON for yourself. As in, living or dying might depend on how well you figure this out, plus or minus 100g. So, the best khuk to use is dependent upon 2 major factors: - Compromise - Physical attributes Regarding compromise, we can resolve that fairly easily. There's 2 ends of the spectrum, maximum speed and maximum effective mass. If you went for pure speed, you'd want the lightest effective khuk you could handle, but that would be at the point you could still "feel" the mass. You have to be at that point of sensing the mass of the khuk, otherwise, a long razor blade at 100g would be the best weapon. You follow me? Speed is essential, of course. If you're slow, you're dead. But mass is also essential. Too light and you've eliminated the whole advantage of using a khuk. They're supposed to be relatively heavy to overwhelm any resistance/shielding/blocks. Like using a big Claymore to hit a shield. Bust right on through some stuff. Create maximum damage with every strike. Otherwise, as I said elsewhere, just use a 300g 7" Ka-Bar and forget about khukuris altogether. OK? Using mockups, I tried 300g, 400g, 500g, and 600g to get a rough estimate of my low end weight. Long story short, at 550g, I started to feel that I had something with some "heft" in my hand. OK, now I know my minimum weight. On the upper end, you go to where you rapidly start to drop in speed, the falloff point if you were graphing this. I tried a lot of mockups from 1000g to 1500g. Bottom line, at 1250g, I found I could still move really quickly. At 1300g, I started to slow down a LOT. That's the point where I'm beyond my physical capability. I've reached my maximum effective mass. Granted, as you said, the more weight you use, the slower you will get, but that is really not that big of a deal, provided you stay in your range. I'm maybe 50% slower over that whole 700g range. Considering that I'm at absolute max speed at 550g, that isn't much of a difference. I'm still going fast enough at 1250g to be competitive with most people. Ninja death warriors aside, ya know? Now I know that I'm good with anything from 550g to 1250g. Here's the hard part, and where this becomes truly personal and subjective. What do I want my compromise to be? For me, I already know that my 842g Sirupana is on the light side, and I prefer to sacrifice a little speed for more mass. I'd want one of my cuts to be as devastating as possible. So I try out more weight in 50g increments and finally arrive at 1000g. Now, does that fit in with comfortable carry weight for me? Well, my loaded Glock 17 is 932g, so sure, this weighs about what a medium weight semiauto does. Remember that even an 1800g khuk is still relatively light. About the same as my Ruger Super Redhawk. And that's what I carry in the mountains when I'm camping/hiking. We have black bears and cougars and other nasty critters here, so I always carry at least a .44Mag, if not a rifle too. :twisted: Anyways: So that is the weight of my fighting khuk, 1000g. Someone else may want a little more speed and sacrifice some mass. It's all your decision and NOBODY else can tell you what is right for you. They can help, by actually watching your performance with well-trained and experienced eyes, but that's it. Under the physical attributes, we should evaluate a combination of someone's size, overall strength, wrist and forearm strength, experience with swinging something with mass, and comfort level regarding weight. There's probably more to it, but I think 5 variables are enough to consider right now. I won't repeat some long and drawn out process, just take all of that into consideration and see how you fare. A lot of that is integrated into what I covered above. I'm good with all of that, although I might back off to 900g, if I decide that splitting the difference between 550g and 1250g is the best thing. Wrist and forearm strength followed by overall strength are the most important things to consider. My buddy is a ripped 57 year old, with Popeye arms, and he is 5'5" and 140 lbs. That 1000g mockup fits him perfectly as well. All we're waiting on is the real 1000g khuk to show up to prove our theory. It should actually be easier to handle, given it has a proper grip. I'll add that having experience with swinging a hatchet, a sword with one hand, a heavy hammer, etc., are all a big factor in this, as well. Now aren't you guys glad I didn't go through a bunch of basic physics equations and physiological specifications again, like I did with the katana? :lol: <<< Once again, don't ever engage in knife fighting. Nobody wins. If the other guy has a knife and you have your khuk, grab something bigger and/or deadlier. Or RUN! No joke. I found a great site where a guy explains all of this as well as I can. Probably better. All of you so-called or wannabe "knife fighters" better read this stuff. >>> www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.htmlEdit: Kinda helps when I post the link I referred to, huh? :oops: Again to clarify more things. :roll: .
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Post by Timberwolf on Aug 20, 2013 9:14:05 GMT
Hey, SCR. I've been all over the world, but I haven't made it up to Alaska yet. My crew of crazies and I keep on saying we'll go up there on the Harleys, but? And my Oglala Lakota Sioux biker bros gave me that handle a LONG time ago. I won't go into that. I never figured you were slamming anyone or anything, so it's cool, bro. As I said, a lot of this is very subjective, and I know even more about your decisions and perspective now. I never had any kids, and if I want one, I can borrow one of my nieces/nephews, or one from a friend. Then, when I'm tired of them, I can give them back. Works for me! My dog is enough trouble for me to handle. :lol: I travel medium light in the woods, but I still probably have 20-25lbs in and on my smaller pack and on my belt. That's counting ammo, but not the rifle, if I have one. And I ALWAYS have a handgun on me. Grandpa said, "Better to have one and not need it ... " :twisted: With the QC issue, all 3 of the companies I've mentioned have problems, but that is just like every other company from SE Asia, China, India, Phillipines, etc. that produces blades. I won't bring up anyone, this isn't the thread for that. However I *do* know that KHHI, HI, and Tora all make it a point to treat their people very well, and I've seen that KHHI and HI consider their people as family, and both have a program to help their Kamis. I've talked to Ms. Yangdu and SLT, but not with Simon. So Tora probably does as well, I just haven't gone far enough on their site to see it in print. I already jumped over this post of yours and talked about CS. I think they make great stuff, but they should stay out of katana and KLOs. But they sell the crap outta both, and I doubt Lynn is going to stop now! I prefer to buy the Chinese kats, because I can't afford ni-honto, and I'll always get my khuks from the Nepalese. But once again, that's my preference. .
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Post by Timberwolf on Aug 20, 2013 10:05:02 GMT
Hi, Timo. Good to see you drop in. I don't see any antiques in my future for at least 3-5 yrs, I'll be a broke grad student for that long, so the traditional handles aren't a concern for me. However, I need to clear up a major misconception you brought up, partner. Somebody's been yanking your chain as well. KHHI, HI, and Tora all have their own exclusive Kamis and their own exclusive facilities. You'll notice above how HI and KHHI call their guys family, and make a point of mentioning this on their sites. Especially on the HI Forum, their group of Kamis is well-known to the guys, you know that. HI mentions their guys by name, and when the Nepalese drug gangs were causing trouble in Kathmandu a few months ago, I was talking to SLT about it, and KHHI shut down because their Kamis and everyone else didn't want to come to their factory. He was really worried about it, because orders were backing up and nobody could make any product. It took them over a month to catch up. That means that they didn't have guys all over the place making khuks. So if they are all using a big pool of talent, they are doing a damned good job of deceiving us about it. Granted, there are a lot of unattached Kamis in Nepal. It's known that they sub out work to these guys, but for the vast majority of the khuks, they are done by the in-house crews. Now, as far as the people stealing designs, product names, and other intellectual property, you need to look at the KHHI site under "Our Appeal" and "Report a Misdeed". SLT is constantly in legal quarrels with these people, it is definitely not like saying everyone can make a hamburger, a taco, or Moo Goo Gai Pan, because everyone has done it forever. I'm not sure what Ms. Yangdu is doing about people like that, but HI doesn't have the problem that KHHI does, given that they don't make all those styles of khuks. Maybe this pool of Kamis are making all the stuff for the crap companies. Maybe most of them aren't good enough to work for the good companies. Maybe that's why the 3 good companies are always looking for talent. Hmmm. So there ya go. That's how it really works over there. Now everybody here knows.
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Post by Timberwolf on Aug 20, 2013 10:42:34 GMT
Hi, Pogo. Yeah, I'm familiar with John McCurdy's work. I think he has an exclusive deal with KHHI, I'm not sure. I've taken the designs from him and the KHHI stuff and made my own using them as a basic set of ideas. I have about half a dozen now! Too bad I didn't research the grips a lot more before my first order, but I think I did pretty well with my modifications back then. I'll have a review of the KHHI semi-customs here in another couple of weeks, I hope. The basic blades that I started with are the 9" Chukuri and the 12" Beast. After that, they are my designs. I bumped them up to 600g and 1000g, respectively. I'll have lotsa pics.
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Post by Timberwolf on Aug 20, 2013 10:51:59 GMT
Heyas, Random! All I can say is great post, and COOL, man!
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Post by Timberwolf on Aug 20, 2013 11:07:05 GMT
Hi, Harald! Yeah, that McCurdy stuff sure is nice ...
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 20, 2013 17:49:24 GMT
Fallen: as to the LTC, I'm sure it's a fine machete. It's just a bad kukri, and a terrible knife. That's the difference I was aiming to point out. I've little to no occasion to "get out and use" anything, as I'm surrounded by suburbs on three sides and protected state forest on the other. :roll: That said, were I ever to find cause to venture into the mountains and "rough it" for a bit, I'd take the sirupate along and leave the LTC at home. It's got too much dust on it to carry around. Still need to get more kuks, but right now my interests are elsewhere, and my budgeting has shifted to reflect this.
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Post by sweetcostarica on Aug 20, 2013 20:14:47 GMT
Said by Timberwofe: "Once again, don't ever engage in knife fighting. Nobody wins." IMO it's best not to buy Kukris or other big blades for the option to fight with in self defense. Even if you're an expert in knife fighting.
1. Nobody wins in a Knife fight (Timberwofe quote). The "winner" is usually badly maimed or the last to die from blood loss (I have pictures). 2. If you feel you need a knife for protection you should move and/or be more friendly. 3. A gun is much better to fight with.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 20, 2013 22:32:16 GMT
Apologies if I happened to spur this new debate, but as we have been discussing the kukri as a combat tool, I felt it was suitably important to infer whether I would be comfortable using either of my kukris as combat tools. That is to say, as fighting knives.
I do not condone the idea of knife fighting and would recommend the best style as the one that runs away really, really fast. But as these are often seen (and used) as combat knives, I feel discussing their potential as fighting weapons is justified.
A knife is the worst choice for daily self-defense, and this comes from a guy who carries several knives daily as tools.
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Post by Timberwolf on Aug 21, 2013 2:03:42 GMT
No, Random! You're cool! This has nothing to do with what you were saying, it's apples and oranges. I'm sure you read the link I posted back there, that is the "Knife Fighting" SCR and I are talking about, the Hollywood type, the imaginary "Billy Badass" stuff: You know, the "2 guys facing off and circling each other with blades" scenario. Not what you were talking about. So, we're good, partner! There's TONS of people who don't know any better, thinking, "Well, I'll just take X years of Yung Dum Fool, and THEN I'll be a good knife fighter." :roll: Nope.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 21, 2013 2:33:50 GMT
Oh, good. Sorry, I've largely glanced through most of the longer posts and have been at work all night so links are getting skipped. Just glad to know I didn't step on any toes and that we all seem to be in agreement on "knife fighting" stuff.
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