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Post by rammstein on Apr 6, 2008 15:42:59 GMT
Let's start the debate ;D
Why do YOU think the flammard blade was invented?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2008 16:11:13 GMT
Ramm: You didn't win in the other thread, you didn't actually site any sources, also I am talking from practical experience and you and your "experts" are all talking theory. Are you talking about flamberges, flammenschwert or flammards?
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Post by rammstein on Apr 6, 2008 16:14:23 GMT
I've never "sited" a piece of information in my whole life  My personal belief is that they were devloped as fashion. Flammard blades on zweihanders were used by the notoriously gaudy landksnechte, and flammards were only ever used by the officers - the most gaudy of all. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2008 16:18:33 GMT
Your personal relief amounts to nothing, where is your back up material to prove the inconsistencies of your argument? I am going to stop citing my practical experience because you won't listen cause your head is so far up your bum that you can't hear me for all the s**t in your ears. Meant in the nicest possible way |
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Post by rammstein on Apr 6, 2008 16:20:42 GMT
...Why is this turning into a hatefest? c'mon mate, keep it civil! If my personal "relief" (which I must say, is backed up by research) is meaningless...what does that make yours  ? Simply put, neither of our opinions alone are enough to mean anything, which is why I've brought in many outside voices that agree with me. And you've brought in...? Yourself playing baseball with a sword. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2008 16:22:50 GMT
Backed up by research? What research mate? All I see is a bunch of wind bags crapping on about their own opinion. Not a hate fest, just a crappy day and it sounded good in my head, wasn't aimed at you at all Sorry about that. |
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 6, 2008 16:24:18 GMT
Just so the casual readers of this fire fight know that I will be doing a test between these swords in the next couple of days:   Look again: Recognise the scabbards- so you see I do have two swords of fairly similar dimensions; one flame and one straight. Although the quality of my knightly far exceeds the CAS crapola. The purpose of the test is to compare geometries in cutting. So I will put these two head to head, and the denser flame pattern should have some effect on cutting, say a three litre bottle. So maybe I can add some evidence to these arguments. However you'll have to wait a couple of days coz I work all day tomorrow. Hold tight y' little battlers. I'll get m' sharpening stones out and have me a smackdown. Vital stats: Kriss: Blade length: 28 1/2" (725mm) Blade thickness is only about 3mm for entire length - whippy / very flexy. Hilt length: 8” (200mm) Overall: 36 ½” (925mm) Grip Length: 4 ½” (110mm) Guard Width: 6 ¾” (170mm) POB (point of balance): 2 ¼” from base of guard COP (center of percussion - 'the sweet spot'): Approx 20" from the guard Weight: 2lbs 10oz (1200g) Review: /index.c.cgi?board=swordreviews&action=display&thread=1188051046 Knightly: 1,170g, or 2lb 9oz. The POB is at 115mm, or 4.5". The grip is 120mm long. 50% distal taper from 6mm down to 3mm 1" before end. Blade length 27.5" Making of: /index.c.cgi?board=swordmaking&action=display&thread=1198761015 |
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Post by rammstein on Apr 6, 2008 16:24:57 GMT
Well I want a civil debate ;D These people HAVE done research, and I'd be more than happy to PM them. Bill Grady is the head historical fencer at the virginia fencing association - not sure of the official name. If his opinions means nothing to you, then I'm afraid you'd never be pursuaded and therefore my argument isnt directed at you, but instead directed at those who may read this and think you're correct . and brenno, it's not a firefight ;D BW and I have always had rocky relations on the forum but we both like and respect one another  . |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2008 16:29:40 GMT
Does the bill guy actually have experience with flamberge? A rapier with a flame blade is actually called a flamberge mate, I agree that other blades are indeed named differently but trust me on the rapier thing mate.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 6, 2008 16:30:12 GMT
Why?
Regarding cutting: My opinion is that if they were designed to cut better then they would be a katana. Really everyone knows that katanas are by far the supior cutting blade.
Regarding the great flambubbles wobbles: I can buy that the shape slows the oponents blade down, but what good is that when you're holding a 66" 7lb crowbar, they're still going to maneuver rings around you?
Really they are a polearm, yet I've never seen a wavy spear. Maybe it stops the blade sinking too far into an impaled opponent? Though, would it hinder blade withdrawal too?
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Post by rammstein on Apr 6, 2008 16:34:47 GMT
Ya, BW, he does actually.
I recall a post he made once about how even he was shocked about how the whole vibration-along-the-edge myth didn't happen with him. He's a very skill rapier and longsword fencer.
Brenno, I'd personally think if they wanted cutting power, they'd make a giant kriegsmesser, honestly. Much bigger and heftier and for the type of combat they were doing, sword mass mattered a lot.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2008 16:35:52 GMT
Bren: It would cause a nastier wound coming out, the whole blade slowing down thing doesn't really work as far as I can tell. I think in this case they are talking about flambily wambily rapiers and flambily wambily rapier combat, it wouldn't really be a problem with a 66" 7 lb crowbar.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 6, 2008 16:39:16 GMT
does anyone have a link to a flamalicious rapier pls. Yeah the slowing of the oponents blade thing must just be a rapier benefit. You aint really fencing with one of those great swords.
So do we all agree that the wobbles on a great sword is just for flair and of no real benefit? And that there may be merit in rapier wobbles - potentially extending to cutting enhancement?
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Post by rammstein on Apr 6, 2008 16:39:47 GMT
7 lb crowbar???
Not likely... just because they were heavier, doesn't mean they weren't lively.
I think ARMA had sommat on that....
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Post by rammstein on Apr 6, 2008 16:41:47 GMT
www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.htmlJohn Clements, who is extremely esteemed in the WMA community (although he's made a few enmeies) wrote that and also addresses the cutting issue a bit.
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Post by rammstein on Apr 6, 2008 16:45:47 GMT
I think I know where to find a flamalicious rapier....
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Post by rammstein on Apr 6, 2008 16:47:49 GMT
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 6, 2008 16:49:07 GMT
7 lb crowbar??? Not likely... just because they were heavier, doesn't mean they weren't lively. Well when you're hands are half a metre apart you get good leverage. But you're not really going to be fencing with it. Again its more of a pole axe, hacking type beast. eh? Also if you were a warrior on the field, that blade could be a pig to sharpen. Out of interest; There are several diferent types of blade cross section on that myarmoury link from earlier Ramm. Some are a wavy diamond section, and some are a hex section with only the peaks sharpened. Some are more like straight edge blades with little triangle cutouts along the edge. |
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 6, 2008 16:52:28 GMT
Sick! -   |
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Post by rammstein on Apr 6, 2008 16:52:43 GMT
Brenno, often times two handed swords were only sharpened on one side, even though both sides were equally adapt at cutting, provided an edge was given. Insteresting, to say the least.
You're right of course, it didn't need to be as agile as, say, a 2 lb longsword, but they certainly weren't burdens to use.
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? Simply put, neither of our opinions alone are enough to mean anything, which is why I've brought in many outside voices that agree with me. And you've brought in...? Yourself playing baseball with a sword.
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