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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 8:53:13 GMT
Here is an illustration from Talhoffer of the Murder Stroke. www.thearma.org/talhoffer/t33.htmHere is an illustration from the Gladiatoria. You will find it on the right side, 8 th row down. www.thearma.org/Manuals/Gladiatoria/Gladiatorie_part6.htmThis is a very controversial strike and I want to hear what you guys think of it. At the heart of the controversy: Is the murder stroke an attempt to use the crossguard as a pick... Or is it an attempt to use the crossguard as a hook. I will avoid the blade grabbing debate and just assume we are using gloves in both cases. The murder stroke is always shown often opposing a half-sword. The question is: Which is in response to which? -The first case is that the murder stroke is an attempt to put the crossguard (or pommol) into someones head and the half sword is a block in response to that. -The Second case is that the other person is already in a halfsword guard and the murder stroke is an attempt to hook that persons halfsword and pull it down. I have done numerous experiments with sharps, blunts and wasters on this. The issue I have with the hooking theory is that with both sharps and blunts it is very hard to maintain a good grip to pull with any force. The hands simply slide down your own blade. The other person has a better grip in the halfsword position. The more tapered your own blade is the more your hands slide as you pull. Only with a wooden waster which normally has thicker and more parallel edges can you maintain your grip. I'm not too crazy about the hammer theory either. Your grip is not that good either for this. My experiments show that the impact of the crossguard as a hammer is not any greater then using the blade in a normal manor. I actually think it is less because you can't get as good a grip on the blade and accelerate it as fast. Its just too thin and narrow. Opinions and thoughts???
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 9:52:19 GMT
Looks like an effective way to get yourself killed in my opinion. Although in the first frame of the Bart Walczak provided manuscript, that is a very effective technique. You grip the blade with one hand and the handle with the other and use it to slash the throat or arm or what have you. Was used to good effect in the movie kingdom of heaven.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 18:04:33 GMT
You grip the blade with one hand and the handle with the other and use it to slash the throat or arm or what have you. Was used to good effect in the movie kingdom of heaven. Yes, I agree that is effective, but I consider that a half-sword maneuver. Murder Stroke is strictly two hands on the blade. I agree with your assessment that Murder Stroke is it is a good way to get yourself killed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 18:12:36 GMT
Obviously the masters put it in there for a reson, and that wasn't to get killed. Your right though, I can't think of a place where it would be useful. Your removing the most dangerous part of you sword and putting it in your hands. If you try to hook your opponents sword, all they have to do is give a sharp tug to lacerate your hands, even with gloves. Or they could just impale you, since as you said Tasafa, they are in the half-sword position already, which is what it was meant for. Interesting. Many sword also have crossguards that I would not want to hit someone with, due to them being too weak. Tsafa, you could always ask at the upcoming "Chivalric Weekend" in upstate New York. Are you going? www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12364
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Post by ShooterMike on Feb 13, 2008 18:17:08 GMT
Don't forget that the crossguards on most longswords are 8+ inches, giving a 3.5-5 inch spike. Tsafa, think of how much "work past the shield" reach you have with your axe blade. Same thing with the spike of a guard. It forces the opponent to block the blow 4 or 5 inches farther out.
I always thought the murder stroke would be useful in battle after your edges had been dulled, rolled or blunted by prolonged fighting.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 18:59:14 GMT
Yes, it is very likely that I will go. I am a member of NYHFA. I have a direct line to Todd and other NYHFA scholars and I was planning to ask them. I wanted to hear what you guys thought too.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 18:59:21 GMT
In my own sparring, it's always come up as an 'oh-s***!' maneuver. Frankly, the time it takes to grab both hands onto your sword and then swing it like a hammer the opponent can see that coming and it's too slow of a strike to use effectively against someone who knows it's coming. As occasion will happen, one person in a match will get disarmed(or purposely drop their weapon if it gets in their way) once the two combatants close too much. If one or both combatants decides to disengage(with a forceful push, shove or kick) oftentimes the one without the sword(or both as the case may be) may grab the swords very quickly(out of necessity), and sometimes the blade is the closest thing to grab and so that puts you in a position for the murder stroke. And if your opponent is already coming at you with their sword, you don't have time to fumble with your grip - you fight back as quickly as you can - if that means swinging your cross at them like a long, thin, hammer, then so be it. And yeah, it's dang effective. When I used to thrust through car hoods, I used a Paul Chen Practical knightly sword with a murder stroke and istantly and without effort the cross just popped right through the hood like butter - it penetrated even better than my boar spear. The second picture looks like the guy was halfswording, got his cross hooked on the other guy's sword, and switched his grip to yank on him. As the name the germans give it is 'murder stroke', that's fairly indicative of its probable use. Whether or not Vadi's illustration is the same, or used as a pick doesn't make much different. I'm sure the murder stroke(as it appears in talhoffer) is designed to kill via forceful impact penetration of the crossguard.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 20:20:43 GMT
Yes, it is very likely that I will go. I am a member of NYHFA. I have a direct line to Todd and other NYHFA scholars and I was planning to ask them. I wanted to hear what you guys thought too. They got back to me and are very much against the idea of hooking for the same reason I stated. That is the person in the half-sword has a grip advantage. The thing that sparked the question was the following You Tube video. It is choreographed but demonstrates the hooking maneuver good enough. It makes not sense unless the guy in the half-sword has butter on his hands. Adam and Mike, thanks for your comments. I think we are all in agreement on this issue.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Feb 13, 2008 20:43:43 GMT
the guards on the gen2 Lucerne and black prince look tailor made for that attack
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2008 4:28:42 GMT
Tsafa:
If you look at the video carefully, the hilt of the hooking sword goes near one of the two hand of the guy blocking - the one holding the blade - so at this point, it's 2 hands vs one almost.
What really bugs me though is what happens after that - his blade gets knocked way, way to the side. Why is that? It should have been easy for the person to disengage his sword way sooner, keep the point towards the murder-stroker and then just stab him before he has recovered from his hooking attempt.
Ancalagon
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2008 9:24:46 GMT
In my own sparring, it's always come up as an 'oh-s***!' maneuver. Frankly, the time it takes to grab both hands onto your sword and then swing it like a hammer the opponent can see that coming and it's too slow of a strike to use effectively against someone who knows it's coming. If you're already in half-sword, does it really take that much time? I remember seeing a good demonstration of the murder stroke in that video where the armourer/blacksmith demonstrated the difference between annealed, hardened and hardened and tempered steel.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2008 18:15:58 GMT
Chris Tobler and Greg Mele both post at Swordforum, you could probably ask them there. IMHO, it's a fallback if you're in half-sword and the other guy tries to jam/crowd you. It allows you to haul back on your sword and whack him one without having to give ground.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2008 23:44:29 GMT
I spoke to that camp. That is when I made post #7 saying they are against hooking because of the gripping issue. They believe it is a hammer blow.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 1:19:46 GMT
When Talhoffer mentions the 'murder stroke', it is a very specific thing he describes. It is indeed the use of the crossguard as a pick or hammer against your opponent. He is also specific about similar illustrations being a 'hooking' movement.
If you actually can find a copy of Plate #58, it shows the opponent on his knees, the crossguard hooked on the back of his neck, with a caption (from Mark Rector's translation) that basically reads: 'After making the murder-stroke, the swordsman on the right.. hooks (his opponent) behind the neck with the cross of his sword to wrench him to the ground."
If memory serves, I have also seen mention of a 'thunder-clap', that seems to imply hitting your opponent in a similar manner, except the crossguard is flat to your target.
On the matter of which follows which, I would say that the half sword is the (only) defense against the murder stroke, because that seems to be the context in all illustrations that I remember seeing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 5:02:35 GMT
When Talhoffer mentions the 'murder stroke', it is a very specific thing he describes. It is indeed the use of the crossguard as a pick or hammer against your opponent. He is also specific about similar illustrations being a 'hooking' movement. I am not aware that Talhoffer has any text. Are you sure its Talhoffer. Do you have a link? My understanding is Talhoffer issued individual images as an advertisement to get people into his school. His images were not for the purpose of teaching as with Ringeck. This may explain why Talhoffer's images include more elaborate maneuvers and weapons. Just speculating so don't nail me to any cross for this one.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 12:01:25 GMT
I'm not sure about the editions of 1443 & 1459 but the 1467 edition is captioned in Swabian. If you go to the ARMA website, the captions are listed separately below the links to various images. www.thearma.org/talhoffer/talhoffer1.htmMark Rector, by his own admission, is a little free in translation, but I think his text from plate 58 is essentially correct. The original Swabian - -Usz dem Mordstreich von Im louffen und stoszen und wider schlahen und ryszen. and a more literal translation- -Out of the "Murder-stroke," from his charge-in and thrust, cut and wrench again. While it is true that Talhoffer's intent was probably more often to show off his status as a teacher, the 1467 version could also be more of a field manual for a professional man-at-arms, although still not a training manual in any real sense. The ARMA site doesn't seem to have the plate I referred to, Ill see if I can scan a copy and post somewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 12:13:36 GMT
Here you go.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 12:41:44 GMT
Wow what a fantastic image! Thanks for posting!
It also clearly shows that the fingers were used on the middle of the blade to push it into one's hand. This is similar to what is called a hook grip in some fields. Somewhere else I have read that the flat of the blade is where the pressure should be applied and not to the edges in a power/hammer style grip.
I have just tried this out with my brother (both wearing slippery woolen gloves to make it more difficult) and when the blade is gripped in this manner one could not pull the blade out of the others hands. When holding the blade comfortably by my brother (i.e. with no previous knowledge of the murder stroke or of swordplay in general) the blade would slip out relatively easily.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 19:28:48 GMT
Great picture. I never saw that one. Thanks for posting.
Do you have a reference link. I want to show it to my WMA group but I need to tell them where it came from. I don't want them to tell me I drew it, lol.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 23:45:38 GMT
After looking some more, these two plates (#72 and 73), support the halfsword in defense of the murder-stroke.
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