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Post by frankthebunny on Jun 4, 2013 2:22:42 GMT
Random, this could work as a short ko-kat, no? I also prefer a one hand grip on a wakizashi, I have wide hands so 6" would be the most I'd be comfortable with but 5" would probably be perfect.
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 4, 2013 3:07:33 GMT
Short ko-kat, sure; but I prefer wakizashi, myself. Never did get into the whole "ko-katana" thing... I'd like to think I could bring the tsuka to "only" 6" if I ever mount my Raw, but only time will tell if I ever do or not. :oops: I used to think my hands were pretty wide, and so I'd need a longer grip on most things...but recently I picked up an antique flyssa and it's only just at 4" in total hilt length, a bit more than 3" for the grip-proper. Seems really small, but a loose handshake grip lets the pommel rest in the meaty bits of the palm and feels very secure, while an icepick grip is a nice, snug fit. Apparently my hands aren't as big as I thought...even though they swallow everybody else's hands I know... But for stickem's sword, a 15" nagasa with a 7" tsuka is somewhere between a baby nagamaki and a confused little sword. ...Still pretty, though.
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Post by stickem on Jun 4, 2013 10:20:46 GMT
Random ~ Thanks for your compliments. As you know, I value your opinion on such things Sometimes my "little sword" is confused too, and perhaps ends up in the wrong places :lol: The thing is with this review, I purposely picked a blade which sort of defies categorization. What I mean is, our minds tend to make these categories and put things in 'em... this is a katana... this is a wakizashi... this is a tanto... and so on. So my intention was to make us aware of these labels we place on things... not saying they are "good" nor "bad" so much as just hoping folks notice how odd it makes us feel when a sword can't go in the "sword bin" in our minds eye, nor does it go in the "knife bin." ~ Were this a "proper" nagimaki, the nakago would be about as long as the blade. A 16" blade on a 16" handle sort of thing. But the tsuka is 7". Nope :? ~ Were this a "proper" naginata, the nakago could be even longer than the blade, and the whole thing mounted on a 6' pole. Then it could be a pole-arm. Nope :? ~ Were this a "proper" wakizashi, it would be about 18-21" long. But the forward heft of this thing frome the heavy belly and width at the end... more like a kukri than a waki. Nope :? ~ Were this a "proper" tanto, it would be about 4" shorter. Were it 30cm long instead of 40cm, out minds might easily see it as a knife... Nope :? ~ Were this a "proper" nagamaki-naoishi, the blade would be about 60cm long. The 3 nihonto I linked were more all in the ball park of 60cm +/- 5cm. Hence, they all could be called ko-katana... or maybe o-wakizashi is what they are... We are talking about Juyo Token here, not just something someone threw together after the shaft on their naginata broke. Nope. :? ~ I don't know that the term "naginata-naoshi" is really the right term for this Kaneie either. I'd expect the blade to be longer than 16" on most naginata, and it should probably show more extreme curvature to qualify as what my mind thinks of as classic naginata sugata. But then the term "naoshi" implies that we modified it, o-suriage and all that. What the hell? Does "naoshi" mean we can modify it to look like whatever sugata at whatever length we want? I dunno. I have no idea. A Klingon weapon? only half joking... :? So what we have here is a blade designed for chopping horse legs mounted on a wakizashi-sized handle that nobody can really wrap their mind around as far as saying exactly " what it is." Is it the sword which is confused, or are we? But it is beautiful. Which is the point... " None but ourselves can free our minds..." ~ Bob
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 4, 2013 16:07:22 GMT
I have seen a few naginata smaller than 16", and I've seen one or two naoshi completely reshaped to "correct" that extreme curve and belly. Funny thing about "naoshi" is it means "corrected" or "adjusted" in such a sense as to better match common perceptions of it's new form. A naginata "adjusted" into a wak would lose significant nakago and sometimes the back of the blade was flattened to slim it's profile and facilitate wearing on and drawing from the hip. I don't have any historic examples or anything to link right now but I've read this more than a few places and it seems more than feasible to me so I believe it. One modern example comes to mind from someone (I can't remember who or where, I'll try to find their page on it later) who made a wakizashi from a Kris Cutlery naginata. I'm sure you've probably seen that one. Anyway, what gets me about a lot of modern wakizashi from even the best Chinese forges is they all seem to have oversized tsuka. Japanese examples generally seem to top out under 6", usually 5", Chinese and otherwise are seldom less than 7", sometimes 8"or more. :shock: At least, from what I've personally managed to find through my own prior searches on the subject. It's been a while since then, though. Either way, it's certainly a very "compact heavyweight" type of blade, and it sure is perty, too. You just watch what you're sticking your little sword into and avoid trouble before one of us has to take custody of this poor thing.
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Post by Ulrich on Jun 4, 2013 18:31:31 GMT
------------------------- Very nice review. Got very helpful information about blade geometry. Will go deeper into this to get the right terms for what I used to call simply "reinforced point". +1 karma I've seen this type of sword before ( www.schwertshop.de/schwerter/kat ... iede2.html) and was tempted to get one, but I don't like the shape of the sheath very much, asking myself if it's really necessary to use this shape. P.S.: The menuki of your Kaneie is gorgeous
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Post by stickem on Jun 5, 2013 11:04:54 GMT
Random ~ Thanks for the historical info. I get that naoshi means corrected to look more like a katana or wakizashi, which gives us more latitude as far as what was cut down than the term suriage. Best I can figure, suriage seems to imply while someone has shortened the nakago, they've generally left the nagasa (meaning specifically the blade part, excluding the handle) alone. Still scratching my head about what to call this one, but if you and Jeffrey like the term 'naginata-naoshi' it is fine with me. Not worth fussing over :lol: I think the rule of thumb for such things is to use the Japanese measurement called sun. I am more familiar with the measurement called cun from Chinese traditional measurement, but the idea seems the same: www.sljfaq.org/cgi/junit_length.htmlSo if we say a way to guesstimate how long the tsuka should be on a katana is take two hand widths + 2 finger widths... which for me, comes out to about 9.5 inches... which is about 8 sun. Then, if we cut this value in half for a wakizashi - since we are switching from a two-handed sword to a one-handed sword - we'd come up with about 4 sun, which is about 5 inches. Basically, when I do the math, I must say your #s are spot on with my guesstimates of what is "proper" for a wakizashi too. Perhaps I just have "handle envy." :lol: Thing is, in FMA we often use the punyo (or butt of the handle), especially when in-fighting/clinch-range/close-quarters, whatever term you want to use. The point being (or the butt being, as the case may be), that I am used to using a little bit of handle sticking out (a couple inches at most) from the bottom of my grip, which I then use to either control and manipulate someone by say inserting it into certain spots (if we are being nice), or striking these spots with the punyo (if we are not being nice). For a mental image, it would look much the same way if you hammered a nail with the wrong end of the hammer (e.g., using the right grip, but the wrong end) :lol: Ah yes... I know what you mean... but before you call Social Services, please know our 2-month old daughter is quite happy. Here is photographic evidence she is being fed well... One of these days I'll get one of them there fancy Photobucket accounts, but for now, as always, you'll have to click on the thumb Attachments:
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Post by stickem on Jun 5, 2013 11:48:07 GMT
Ulrich ~ Thank you. Unfortunately, my Japanese is admittedly rather poor. In general terms, we could say this sword has " saki-haba," which refers to the width of the blade at the yokote... but this blade doesn't have a yokote :? We also could say this sword has much " kasane" at the "kissaki," which I think means the thickness of the blade at the tip.So someone with more knowledge than I can probably answer this terminology question more definitively for you. Anyway, here is a PDF of lots of terminology which I find comes in handy for situations like these: www.siseido.net/pdf/sword.pdfIt is indeed similar and 1095. Completely different polish and fittings though... Interesting they call it a "tanto" though the length is 44.5cm, which is just a little longer than the Kaneie. Thanks for finding it Please know I was talking about not being able to find a naginata-naoshi for sale through Kaneie, if that wasn't clear previously. Didn't mean to imply I couldn't find one in all the world :lol: Specifically, I searched Kaneie's Chinese websites here: www.kaneiesword.cn/and here: k-sword.com/in addition to the Sam Work site, and couldn't locate a version of it the way Jeffrey was able to do. Indeed! You know, I was on the fence about buying one of these pieces, but when I saw this specific one with that guy with the 3rd eye come popping out from a diamond as if he was a soul trapped behind bars of ito, I was hooked. Definitely my favorite part of the sword, and I don't say this about menuki very often
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jun 5, 2013 16:36:14 GMT
Thanks for the review. I must say I like the sword, I remember messaging thumbs up to Jeffrey about one similar that was sold already. I thought it was very nice and bit unusual addition, good thing it was already sold as I couldn't afford it. I think this is unokubi-zukuri wakizashi made in the style of naginata-naoshi. There was a trend during late Edo period to make new swords that resembled naoshi swords. And like you said it's quite obvious this sword was actually made like it is now instead of actually remodelling it from a naginata. It's very nice to see your own pictures. As even though your pics are good quality pics, the difference between Kaneie's own professionally taken pictures is big. I prefer your pictures, they give much closer idea what the sword looks like in hand than the greatly adjusted Kaneie pics.
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Post by Valandur on Jun 5, 2013 17:54:21 GMT
To my Gai Jin eyes most menuki are more less oddly shaped pieces of metal, but I've not looked deeply into them so what I see is what can be seen with the Tsuka wrapped.
But the guy on your sword is just cool looking! I know for sure what's going on my sword if I ever rewrap it! (Or get it wrapped) Provided I can find some of these that is.
I don't know what it is about silver fittings, but I really like them on a sword.
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Post by stickem on Jun 5, 2013 18:11:09 GMT
[/i]
Jussi ~
Thanks for the kind words. Nice to know you were considering buying one too, as I value your opinion and know you like naginata.
As far as photography goes, about all I am able to do is aim the camera and push the button. I know nothing about lighting but can resize them so they don't take so long to load on the forum :lol:
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Post by Ulrich on Jun 5, 2013 18:54:15 GMT
--------------
Oops... You're right, I've misunderstood that point :oops: Havn't read your posting carefully enough
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Post by stickem on Jun 5, 2013 19:28:12 GMT
[/i] No worries. I tend to write long-winded posts, so I am surprised when anyone reads all the words anyway :lol: The important thing is it prompted you to link that one from Longquan for us to have for comparison purposes to see what is available with this quite unusual sugata. Have some karma for the effort it takes to read that entire review
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Post by stickem on Jun 5, 2013 22:56:36 GMT
Hi all! Ok, so apologies but it took a few days to wait for the rain to clear and get a day sunny enough to use natural sunlight for a follow-up pic. I dunno much about photography, but I do know to use natural sunlight rather than a flash indoors to give an idea of how the sword looks in hand... So here is the same photo from the review showing the rust spot before an application of Mother's Mag. Keep in mind, at this point, the only thing I had done is remove the blade from the saya, remove the plastic sheeting from the blade, and wipe the oil off with a cotton piece of T-shirt: And here is a photo I took today showing this same area after an application of Mother's Mag, buffing it out with a terry cloth applicator with a handle, like the ones you use on your car. The rust spots are no longer seen: Note: please click on thumbs for a bigger view. I left the pics at a large size so you can see everything in almost full resolution rather than cutting them down to the usual smaller size used in the review. So these pics may take longer to load than the others, and you'll probably have to scroll to see the whole thing. Hope this answers any questions, If not, I have more after pics, which are easy enough to post. There aren't more before pics because it was more important at the time to clean & polish the blade up than it was to take more photos of this spot. Attachments:
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 6, 2013 0:51:48 GMT
That rust is sufficiently negligible, I say. I've got spots on my stuff much worse than that one; I should really get some Mother's...
I'm loving the shape of this thing more every time I look at it. Perfect execution of naginata-naoshi style blade.
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Post by stickem on Jun 6, 2013 14:59:13 GMT
Thanks Random! It really looks and feels like a sophisticated version of a Himalayan Imports the more I handle it. For those of you who don't know, Mother's Mag is polishing stuff for Al and chrome like mag wheels. So you can find it at Western Auto or Advanced Auto... not hard to find
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 6, 2013 16:56:16 GMT
Curving the wrong way for a kuk, though. But you know, if you ever decide that really bothers you...I'll uh, I'll dispose of it for you. No charge.
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Post by stickem on Jun 6, 2013 17:38:01 GMT
Of course you are right, it doesn't have the belly of a kuk but it does have that forward heft to it which feels similar when I flow with it.
They may have to send Tony Soprano to dispose of me before I'll let go of it... but I will write you into the will as its rightful new owner when I sleep with the fishes :lol:
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Post by zentesukenVII on Jun 12, 2013 5:30:55 GMT
This wak looks alot like the Kiku Wakizashi from SNA's Munetoshi line.
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 12, 2013 5:54:05 GMT
Hmm, that one's actually not bad. It is quite close to this Kaneie, but I wonder if the Kaneie doesn't have a wider belly, by just a bit? Hard to say from SnA photos. Specs are nearly identical, though...
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Post by zentesukenVII on Jun 12, 2013 14:00:34 GMT
I emailed them about getting me a reference to contact the forge that makes the blade to get a bare blade. They were actually not helpful at all and quite rude about it. It was a bit upsetting.
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