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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2007 21:12:51 GMT
Tsafa,
I never really put too much thought into the particulars of my group. Generally, thick leather gloves(the thicker the better, I've got kevlar-reinforced motorcycle gloves, they're AMAZING) and fencing masks are what we use most of the time, and we do all our sparring with either PVC boffers(a sword made from pvc pipe with insulation foam on it with a wooden core for strength) or wooden wasters.
We do A LOT of 'suburi', or 'practice swings'. Usually 100 of each mastercut on each side(left and right) as well a other more basic variations on the standard 'oberhau' and 'unterhau'. On top of that we often drill for things like extension/reach, and speed, i.e. getting your sword out there as quickly and with as little telegraphing as possible.
We also do a lot of work with a pell, usually using either wasters on our tire-pell and suburi bokken on the wooden pell. Again, emphasis is on form(you can tell from the sound of impact if it's a good hit or not) as well as speed. Trying to get each set of suburi done as fast as possible is a good way to speed up your strikes.
Proper breathing is important throughout all this.
What this does is make us feel very very natural with our weapons. I know it's cliche, but they're literall extensions of our body, as much a part of us as an arm or a leg. We've done this enough so that we can spar very quickly, while still being able to pull our hits somewhat. It still hurts like the dickens when we get hit, but it's not bone-breaking force. Every training practice results in very sore muscles, and a lot of bruises.
As for grappling, nobody is allowed to grapple in sparring unless they've done enough grappling drills so we know how to safely avoid permanent damage. If the weapons are dropped and the grappling match goes on for more than a second or two, generally one person QUICKLY gets advantage of the other, 90% of the time within just a few seconds, and it's clear enough that someone got the point, so they break after that. If it goes on longer(particularly regarding chokes and some locks) then it goes until someone taps the other one or says they give.
As for what's allowed or not, it really depends on what's agreed to before hand. Sometimes we want to be able to practice certain things in a sparring situation and so that's agreed upon. Other times it's just a free-for all sparring system where both combatants must use an honor system, and there's almost always a 3rd person(a judge if you will) to offer an objective opinion on how the combatants are doing.
In the most serious sparring senses, we go best out of 5 points, i.e. first person to 3 points, where a point is any hit which would kill or severly cripple the opponent(hand shots, good arm shots, strong strikes to the knees, hamstrings, thighs, etc). A won grapple counts as a point. Smaller hits, such as would wound or lacerate, but still reasonably allow for a fighter to continue count as a point when 3 such hits are scored, though these aren't what we go for, sometimes someone doesn't completely void a hit and gets one of these 'minor hits', etc.
A couple of times we've gotten our fencing masks on, put on thick/heavy/padded clothing along with some beefy gloves and fought all out with shinai, though really we try to focus on good application of good technique, which is best brought out in the previous situations.
Anyway, so far we've yet to have a serious injury. Once we had a guy take a thrust to the neck with a wooden waster, but he was fine(looked awful though). The worst we've had is bruised bones in the hands(particularly fingers and knuckles - about a week to heal fully, only occasionally more), and some rather deep purple bruises on the arms and legs, but nothing like the huge welting bruises i've seen on some SCA guys(which they wear like vain little trophies). Those guys are really rough, i'm not sure how the SCA is over where you're at.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2007 0:04:11 GMT
Ahh yes, PVC piping. I tried to get the guys in my group to try it on more then one occasion. They seem to have a mental block. They prefer to use steel blunts and just go easy. One of the reasons I spend most of my time in the SCA. On a few occasions I had some of the very experienced swordmen came to my SCA practice and put on some armor and try some of the weapons forms. They all bombed. They blamed the armer, the swords and even me (lol). From what I saw, they were just not able to easily adjust to the speed that things were moving at. Things tend to unravel at higher speeds.
As far as the hit calibration in my area, its MURDER. One of the highest in the SCA. I don't like bruises though. Bruised muscles would interfere with my other training routines (weight training, rapier, livesteel). My solution is fullbody armor with a lot of padding underneath. I still get some bruises but the are mostly skin bruises, not deep muscle bruises. My armor weighs about 40 lbs. My weight training gives me the strength to be able to move as comfortably as some of the more lightly armed fighters.
Thanks for your input Adam.
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Post by chakobsa on Apr 21, 2007 0:35:36 GMT
The spear was probably the weapon of choice for most Norse warriors, though hand axes of various styles and sizes were also used. Swords were expensive, high status weapons for the most part. spears held a deep religious significance for those of the warrior caste, since Odinn, god of battles wielded a spear (named Gugnir). Also, Odinn's self sacrificial hanging involves a ritual wounding with his own spear; "I ween that I hung on the windy tree Hung there for nights full nine With spear I was wounded, and offered I was To Othin, myself to myself, On the tree that none may ever know What root beneath it runs. None made me happy with loaf or horn And there below I looked; I took up the runes, Shrieking I took them And forthwith I fell back." Spears were ritually thrown to dedicated the slain in the battle to come to Odinn . I think that as a weapon, the spear sums up the fatalism of the Viking character as revealed in the sagas very well, after all, once the spear is thrown there is no turning back. BTW, killing two birds with one stone, there is a fine Viking age depiction of a berserker to be found amongst the pieces of the Lewis chess set; www.aucklandmuseum.com/?t=855 wielding a "kite" shield no less. 
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2007 0:47:51 GMT
The spear was probably the weapon of choice for most Norse warriors, though hand axes of various styles and sizes were also used. Swords were expensive, high status weapons for the most part. Yes, I aggree with with. Problem is that wood breaks down and so few have survived. Molon Lave  (come and take it)
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Post by rammstein on Apr 21, 2007 1:19:12 GMT
Chakobsa, I would argue that the spear was the weapon of necessity for most viings, not choice. Swords were expensive, needed some training, and were hard to manufacture. This means that it just wasn't worth the money for a poor viking who had to rely on his trusty spears (and yes, they had more than one), axe, and dagger. Despite the reverence given to the sword, it is just too impractical and inefficient for this type of warfare.
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Post by chakobsa on Apr 21, 2007 1:27:44 GMT
Chakobsa, I would argue that the spear was the weapon of necessity for most viings, not choice. Swords were expensive, needed some training, and were hard to manufacture. This means that it just wasn't worth the money for a poor viking who had to rely on his trusty spears (and yes, they had more than one), axe, and dagger. Despite the reverence given to the sword, it is just too impractical and inefficient for this type of warfare. Ok, then, choice and hard-headed pragmatism. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2007 5:03:27 GMT
I think all culters used a wooden spear at some point in their development. I think they continued to use it right up untill they moved to fire arms. They may have reinforced the head and tail with a metal point but it is still the same weapon used the same way. I consider a lance a spear too, just thicker.
Anyone happen to know any culture that did not use spears?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2007 3:35:18 GMT
Hank, I see the longboat as a weapon, if only for the psycological effect that a fleet of them have sailing towards a poor, christianized village in the british isle. You're right, it doesn't actually KILL anywone, but it does spell death and destruction, providing a morale drop to the citizens onshore. If they saw them coming. From what I read of the accounts, yes many in stories but allot of them were true in Irish story telling that the Vikings would come up river at night, silently and be upon a village before anyone would know. They would raid the village, either burning it down or by occupying it if they wanted to expand their territory. Yes they would also terrorize the people and make the subject. But when they were raiding and pillaging, it was at night in the boats and upon the un-suspecting people before they knew it. You do make a good point. If the people did see it that was a real good mental weapon, but that I do not think happened often. that is right however, Vikings were not that into conquering territories as into plundering and looting. Vikings were over-aggressive merchants that sold slaves and other goods after forcefully taking them from others. The only three recorded conquering parties in Viking history are the Vikings move into the East (Novgorod, Kiev and later contact with Byzantium), the Danelaw in England and the Harald Haardrade failed campaign to establish a dynastic monarchy in Norway by annexing England and using various vassals into the army he commanded in the Battle of Stamford Bridge. It is worth noting that after Haardraade's defeat, the Viking age began to eclipse. The Norman lands in France were a concession of the French King to the Viking warlord Rollo as an attempt to prevent him from looting Paris. They frequently traded with the Muslim world and Eastern peoples as the Christians in Europe refused to barter or trade with "heathens and pagans"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2007 21:12:39 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2007 7:44:01 GMT
Awesome, Awesome link tsafa! again, you help immensely - i too have bookmarked this site today, because I have ordered my first sword - A Cold Steel Viking - Reviews to come I'm toying withthe idea of making some of this kind of stuff, and this is the most informative, in-depth site I've seen so far. Saves me buying a book or two.......
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2007 5:44:29 GMT
The cold steel viking sword is nice, but not as accurate as I'd like. At fair I got to swing one around, and I found that it balances more or less on par with the Gen2 10th century viking. Which is fine, since that means it handles well.
What I don't like is the very thin fuller, the too-long grip, the diamond instead of lenticular cross section, and the celtic etching. While it looks pretty nice in pictures, it's not as attractive in person, but that's purely subjective... so take it for what it's worth.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2007 15:53:21 GMT
The thin fuller and the celtic designs were not my favorite either, but price ruled this decision - Duties and taxes would make most other vikings a $500 purchase. Also considered the Sticklestad from Windlass, but Can't have it shipped sharpened. Cold Steel fortunately does not make unsharpened blades (so far as I have seen, anyway). Us Canadians will have to gang up on Reliks or W+W to start carrying Gen2!
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2007 1:41:52 GMT
I also have been very interested in the Windlass Sticklestad. I wanted to get some more info on it but I can seem to find any reviews or anyone with experience with it so far.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2007 16:32:48 GMT
I am wondering if the I.33 material might not be the key to Viking combat after all.
Everyone seems to poo-poo that idea, saying that "you can't use a Viking shield in the manner of that buckler."
Think about it. The first bucklers seem to have appeared in Scandinavia around the end of the Viking Age, just when the last of the Viking shields were being phased out. What is a buckler besides a Viking shield with all the wooden parts hacked away?
The I.33 buckler covers the sword hand. The Viking shield could perform the same function, but covering the sword hand with its edge. This would explain why the Viking sword could get by with such a dinky crossguard, and why it changed when the shield changed.
Most of the I.33 moves can be duplicated or adapted with a Viking sword and shield, at least on first pass. I have yet to investigate this thoroughly. Does anyone else have experiences with this?
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Post by rammstein on May 9, 2007 19:39:43 GMT
Kortoso, the only problem with that is that bucklers were normally used to guard the exposed spots when striking (the arm, the hand, the leg etc.) It is also intended more for sport than for actual combat, IIRC. Same way the fighting a rapier duel on the battle field isn't the best course of action ;D!
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2007 11:29:52 GMT
I have always felt that I.33 is incomplete as we have it or was meant to specialize in one particular area of a much broader fighting style. I have have some limited experience with the buckler and arming sword. I have watch people use this form effectively. I have had a good deal of experience with the buckler and rapier.
With the arming sword, in armored combat, the buckler is best used when used to punch out and block the other persons swing at its point of origin. There are two advantages to this, first you know where the sword is coming from, the shoulder. Second the sword has not accelerated much at that point. If you catch him their, you can stop him arm in an awkward position that may be hard to recover from too.
With the rapier the buckler is held out the whole time. This is because the rapier most of the cuts and thrusts are done with the tip. If you hold the buckler close to your body it only covers the area behind the buckler. If you hold it extended the geometry from the other persons shoulder to the edges of your buckler creates a funnel defense that continues to extend back to you body and cover a larger area then the buckler itself. Coverage of the hand falls within this defense, but I disagree that this is the extent of the defense. By holding an 18 inch buckler out you can cover the area from the waist up to the eyes. By shifting the buckler up while extended you can cover the whole head to the belly. Shift it down extended you can cover from the knees to bottom of the chest. Below the knee you must either use your sword, a stop thrust or a retreat.
The heater shield, in contrast, is held close to the body. You make minimal movements up and down. Punching out with a heater is risky even if to strike with it because it opens up areas. It is also tiring to punch out an 8 lb heater repeatedly. Buckler weighs 3 or 4 lbs.
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Post by hankreinhardt on May 10, 2007 20:02:17 GMT
Vikings rarely attacked at night. They can't see in the dark any better than anyone else. If you wish to find out how the Vikings actually fought, I suggest getting copies and reading the Icelandic Sagas. There are several references that give a good indication as to what happened in a fight. One comment is that "he parried the blow flat shielded", which to me indicates that using the edge of the shield was the most common. There are many examples of guys having their leg cut off, both above and below the knee, and there are also examples of thrust through the chest. I would like to do a video on this, as I was never satisfied with the one done for Palladin Press. Now my problem is finding people who live close enough to work with. Alas, I use to fight pretty well, but age and emphysema have slowed me somewhat......trying to get back in shape now...Frankly I feel that 73 is entirely too young to quitting sparring. Hank
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2007 4:21:00 GMT
Hank, I'm glade to see you are back and feeling better.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2007 5:49:07 GMT
And back swinging no less! 
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Post by rammstein on May 12, 2007 20:41:33 GMT
Hank thank's for the relpy, and we're all glad to see that you're doing much better! When clyde posted the news, we were all very shocked and worried, so it's great to see your feeling well!
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