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Post by hankreinhardt on May 12, 2007 23:19:53 GMT
Hey guys, Again, read the Sagas. One thing you will find in the Sagas is very little exaggeration.(There are some Viking Romances that are pure fiction that has the usual amount of hype) They are pretty much accurate, although there are times when the dates aren't quite right. As for them and the Irish, remember that it was the Vikings that founded Dublin. At the Battle of Clontarf (1014) there were Irish fighting with the Vikings, and some Vikings fighting with the Irish.Neither felt any sort of nationalistic bound at that time.
As for spears, they are damn effective weapons, and if you drive one very hard, you can push it through a shield. Remember these guys grew up with this stuff, and they were not playing. By the time of the Viking age, generally considered to start with the raid on Lindisfarne, everyone had a sword. The really good swords did cost money, but so did the axes and spears. We are too much influenced by books and hype.
The one thing that I dearly love, and there has never been one found, is the Viking "Halberd" sometimes translated as "Bill">
I've had some arguements about it, but I believe that it was similiar to the berdiche and many of the other polearms. If anyone is interested will present my case. Makes helluva weapon though. Hank
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Post by rammstein on May 12, 2007 23:31:06 GMT
Hank, I don't mean to be such an airhead, but I seriously doubt that a spear could ever penetrate a shield unless it's planks were poorly glued together or the body was wicker. I have several shields that I made myself, all about 3/4 of an inch thick and made entirely from wood. On all of them, my windlass viking spear will penetrate about 1/2 of a centimeter if I runn with full force and practically throw myself onto the shield. Honestly, in terms of protection I think I'd much rather have a wooden shield than one of them fantasy metal ones ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2007 23:59:20 GMT
With my boar spear i've penetrated through over an inch thick plywood, and I'm not talking about that pressed crap, but real ply. The blade stuck through a good 6 inches out the back side.
That and a car hood. A TOYOTA car hood. those things are tough. I don't think it out of the realm of possiblity that a shield get penetrated.
As for Hank himself: OOOH!! Pick me! I'd love to do some sword work with you! Quick! Whereabouts do you live so I know where to move to!
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Post by rammstein on May 13, 2007 0:08:03 GMT
pssh, I'm closer than you are, so I'm first  adam, you may have been able to push it through 1 inch, but that doesn't mean much. All it means is that you're now stuck with your spear point buried DEEP in a shield with "maybe" 1/4 of an inch penetrating through it. Certainly not the whole thing and no where near a lethal length unless the guy was pressed up against the shield and you happened to strike his jugular. |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 1:05:00 GMT
I have used 2 wooden Shields when I first started fighting. They lasted me an average of 3 months. That is about 12 practices, 6 to 8 fights per practice. Mine were pretty thick too (and heavy). Mind you the shield was not being hit with sharp weapons. I have seen lighter ones last a month or sometimes just one fight. I have also seen very heavy 20 lb ones that don't break. It is usually not a case of one hit breaking the shield in half. Rather the wood kind of disintegrates from repeated hits until it becomes unusable.
I have since switched to plastic. I cut up 55 gallon carwash drums and reinforce them with a three plastic horizontal ribs. It is almost indestructible. Much lighter too at about 8 lbs with the shield basket handle, straps and edging.
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Post by rammstein on May 13, 2007 1:11:25 GMT
My wooden shields aren't much more than 8 themselves...
also, you have to remember that bludgeoning wood with rattan is not equivalent to slicing at it with a sword. And at the strength you sca guys hit, it's no suprise those shields don't last too long! I've used my oldest one for several years now, maybe 5? Only over the summers though. Anyway, it's been through some pretty tough combat and it's chipped, beaten, and hurt, but it is still as solid as a rock!
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 6:29:18 GMT
I think I just said the blade stuck out the backside of the wood by 6 inches... not 1/4''...
Anyway, you're right, it'd be stuck, but as beefy as that spearhead is, I'm sure it could wrench apart a shield if I torqued it just right. either way there's now a spear-shaft between me and my opponent, so he can't get me anyway.
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Post by rammstein on May 13, 2007 14:01:25 GMT
oops, sorry didn't read that.
Still, I think that cold steel is not a good representation of spears in general. I'm not very weak and I can't get my spear to penetrate my shield at ALL. And I seriously doubt you can wrenth apart a shield unless you are of super human strength...
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 18:26:14 GMT
I was just thinking about the leverage one has when you apply force at the end of a 6 foot long shaft... maybe you're right, I've never tried that...
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Post by rammstein on May 13, 2007 18:31:52 GMT
Wood is suprisingly resilient. If you notice in fantasy movies and whatnot, shields are often made of metal. Well metal deforms, rusts, dings, vibrates, and doesn't have anwhere near the advantages that a good old slab of wood does. Wooden shields can trap both a thrust and a cut because the wood creates pressure on either side of the blade, therefore rendering it VERY hard to get out. On a cut or thrust (as I've said before somewhere...) in battle, the blade will be caught for a fraction of a second - enough time for the shield holder to kill the original aggressor. On the subject of leverage: The shaft alone "may" be able to destroy a weak shield if it was in ideal conditions and the shaft was actually penetrating the shield rather than just the head. hoever, this is assuredly never going to happen and if one were to try this using only the spear head in the shield, the head would almost certainly flex and negate any legerage. If not, it will warp and you're left holding a bent spear while your enemy is about to cleave you in two. ;D |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 18:59:31 GMT
Read my spear review for how tough that spear-head is. It's dang impressive.
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Post by rammstein on May 13, 2007 19:05:02 GMT
I did, it's a great review by the way I just don't think that tempered (or untempted for that matter) steel has the leverage to do that. |
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Post by hankreinhardt on May 13, 2007 19:48:12 GMT
Let me jump in with a few comments. I much prefer wooden shields than metal of the Holly6wood version. However some of the smaller steel shields are excellent. As for Viking shields. The remnants that have been found indicate that the shields were ablout 1/2 inch thick at the center, and about a 1/4 at the edges. Only a few seems to have have any type of metal banding along the edges. most seem to have been held together by bolts, and I would think, but it can't be proved, some form of hide glue. Some, but not all, were covered in leather.
As for driving the spear through the shield, you have to take into consideration the weight of the spear and momentum, plus the strength of the shield. If you drive the shield pretty deep, you can just leave it there. Think of using your shield with a 7-8 foot spear hanging off of it.
The sagas are full of shields being hacked to pieces, pierce by sword and spear and chopped up with an axe. When you consider that there is very little exaggeration, and that they were talking to an audience that was fully familiar with these things. I am inclined to believe them. There is another folly that we all fall for. Thinking that the Vikings and the people back then were no different than ourselves. Now they most assuredly had the same intelligence level, but as for their overall conditioning and strength. far, far superior. They never smoked, rode in cars or lay on the courch watching TV. As farmers they worked the land all of time. Even the raiders also had steadings and farms. Working a farm is real work!
I've known several farm boys over the years, and they were all tough as nails, and this was in the 50's, when there were still small farms. And even then that had a lot of equipment that was not availalbe to the Vikings. Hank
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 21:35:04 GMT
I believe the Romans through spears with the intent of getting their spears stuck in the enemy shields (or killing the enemy). This forced their opponents to abandon their shields as they became unmaneuverable.
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Post by rammstein on May 13, 2007 22:06:38 GMT
Yes however this was only good for eleminating opponents who fought as individuals instead of groups. It seems to have little effect (form what I can tell) against other roman units who fought as a formation. It really is only a hinderence for one person, but when fighting in a group, it doesn't effect much. Still, each legionnaire had 2 pilum and these were very lethal!
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2007 16:18:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2007 16:01:17 GMT
I agree with Hank (not that he needs my lowly help ) In the Sagas, during Holmganga, the viking duel, fighters brought 3 sheilds, and after they were all smashed, had to go without and use their sword to defend. This means that a sheild wouldn't necesarily last an entire battle. Especially if it already had been used in previous fights, I don't think they were built to withstand that rigor. And yes, there is a story of a spear going through a sheild so far as to peircing a man's chest. I just can't remember which story right now.... |
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2007 16:29:44 GMT
Lots of information about the Holmgang available to the googler: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HolmgangAs suggested by The Battle of Maldon, the bulk of the combat was done with spears. I would assume that a shield could stand up to that, as well as arrows. Probably that was what a shield was mostly designed to repel. If swords were such a threat, they would probably build them more sturdy. |
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Post by rammstein on May 25, 2007 17:31:37 GMT
swords were also not a normal mans weapon and you'd be far more likely to find yourself facing a man with a spear or axe than a sword. Swords are hard to use and hard to make.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2007 22:03:01 GMT
swords were also not a normal mans weapon and you'd be far more likely to find yourself facing a man with a spear or axe than a sword. Swords are hard to use and hard to make. Yepper, the steel in a sword could be used to make several spearheads. Also, if you read the poem The Battle of Maldon, even the bigshot Earl fights with a spear. Heck, it's the weapon of Odin, isn't it? |
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