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Post by GUEST on Apr 14, 2013 8:17:42 GMT
Because it just isn't right for makers to be ripping off each other designs. I won't want to and I would hope other makers on here wouldn't either. I wouldn't want to take the chance of getting sued either.
I won't make the knife I made for JR agian with out his permission for anyone else.
By the way it is a complex design better have plenty of money to get it did.
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Post by oolong dao on Apr 14, 2013 8:47:22 GMT
I understand what your saying but the maker seems to only exist when he has something to sell, and while im so sure that everyone here is the most outstanding and respectful person in the world, i also know that if i throw enough money,2500 tops, ill get what i want.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Apr 14, 2013 12:56:05 GMT
OK, that's it for me. I'm out like Liberace.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 14, 2013 17:18:41 GMT
I don't think you will find too many people willing to knowingly directly copy another makers design here on the forums... no mater how much money you throw at them. Most of the custom blade makers I've dealt with here have something called 'Honor'. If you are willing to consider a similar but at least somewhat altered design... BKS might be a good source for what you are looking for.
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Post by GUEST on Apr 14, 2013 17:36:56 GMT
Like Sean said the other makers on here have the ethics not to make someone else design even though you are saying you will pay $2500.00 tops. I doubt you would do it. Come up with your own design and we can talk. Here in a month or so I will be posting bowies with 9 to 12 inch blades (I can go a lot longer up to 18 maybe 20 in.)real bowie designs well one is actually a rifleman's knife. Personally I don't consider the one you link to a bowie. More what he calls it a short boarding cutlass.
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Post by Opferous on Apr 14, 2013 18:04:12 GMT
Morality aside, if you want to know the law (in the US, anyhow), you should refer to Title 17 USC. Knife designs are specifically protected under 17 USC § 102 (a). Even if you were to change slight aspects, derivatives are protected under 17 USC § 103, so that would not be a viable option unless changes were so significant that the court would recognize two obviously different pieces of work.
You would have to argue that the particular design you wish to duplicate is actually public domain (published as such by the originator or the copyright has expired 70 years after the originator's death). However, this piece is very distinctive and of the maker's style. I don't think you could effectively make that argument. All you can do is ask for the copyright owner to give you permission to have someone duplicate it.
Besides honor and respect usually present in the industry, no individual maker is going to risk copyright infringement when it constitutes: Actual dollar amount of damages and profits. $200 to $150,000 for each work infringed. All attorneys fees and court costs. An injunction to stop the infringing acts. Impounding of the illegal works. Jail time.
$2500 isn't much when you consider those damages and loss of reputation/self-respect :lol:
Disclaimer: Not a lawyer. Don't use for actual legal advice.
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Post by oolong dao on Apr 14, 2013 23:12:28 GMT
so in other words, theres little to s*** chance i have of ever getting what i want?
wonderful. i guess i won't ever get a sword.
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Post by Onimusha on Apr 14, 2013 23:22:39 GMT
Have you tried contacting him through Ebay?
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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on Apr 14, 2013 23:58:24 GMT
wow, interesting read here huh?? Firstly, with regard to the "legality" of the issue, first thing is that the design must be formally copyrighted to be protected. Not to mention that even if it were an issue of copyright infringement, noone is gonna invest the coin to bring a suit over a "one off custom" whether its a blatant rip off or not. Even when looking at the knife in question, it "borrows" so many cues from other famous pieces it's not even funny. Fact is, this type of thing happens ALL THE TIME, and there is no need to challenge someones "honor". But for the OP, it sounds like you need to do a little research before getting all huffy over the answers you get. you've kind of come off as a spoiled kid, and really should read some posts before getting all snarky. There is a ton of information here regarding the subject you brought up, but you need to be willing to dig it up for yourself. If you cant do that, then youre not nearly as serious as you'd like to have us believe. But at least i got a good chuckle for your 2500.00 comment.
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Post by Opferous on Apr 15, 2013 0:18:41 GMT
Eh, formal registration is required to bring suit, but it's not really the same as not being protected. You can register post-infringement to bring suit, but depending on how long it has been since your copyright was generated, you lose eligibility to recover certain damages, and your chances of getting loss of profit out of the case are much lower.
And yeah, chances are no one will ever bring suit in small cases like this, but just because you can get away with breaking or skirting the law and because others do it doesn't mean that we should encourage it.
For the OP though, seriously, if you have that much of a budget, just come up with an original design or something common enough to be public domain. Most people don't like only one exact sword in the entire world.
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Post by Onimusha on Apr 15, 2013 0:36:43 GMT
Is the maker still alive? It's like he dropped off the planet.
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Post by William Swiger on Apr 15, 2013 4:15:08 GMT
I can see an actual historical sword being copied from an original. I have had a couple historical swords made by smiths even though a company or others have already made a recreation of the same sword. To me, this is fair. Swords made like this will be similar but not 100% identical.
When you get into modern designs, one off swords and custom designs - that is where a copy is very wrong.
Sad thing is there is a company or two who do copy other designs and customs. They make very small changes and sell the products. When looking at the swords, you can see what they copied. Bad business.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 15, 2013 10:53:04 GMT
Not going to get into the legality of it... I'm not a lawyer. Your right, it DOES happen all the time, sword makers coping others designs. However, with the custom makers that are active on these forums, it does not happen very often... because of a little something called integrity. So while yes, many could likely get away with it... I will not have such tactics encouraged or support on this forum as long as I am a part of it. That is NOT who we are and not what we stand for.
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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on Apr 15, 2013 12:01:38 GMT
A little something called integrity?? did i mention somewhere, or give the impression that i don't understand what that is?? This is the kind of codescending talk i referred to in my post. You can ride your high horse all you want, but the fact is that knives and swords have been done and redone to a point where there is hardly an original idea left. Is a dguard bowie not a rip off of the original? What about a saw back blade? or a clip point or fullers?? get my idea. The design posted is a RIP OFF of a primitive jim bowie knife similar to the alamo find. Some of you take yourselves too seriously, and are very quick to judge others. There is no reason to assume that you or anyone else here has any more integrity or honor than anyone else. We are talking about one knife being made for a comissioned piece, and frankly , any honor or integrity would involve the smith, not the customer. To deny a piece based on ones personal feelings is fine, and i respect it. To preach the HIGH AND MIGHTY without a dog in the fight, is, well, preaching. I'm guessing your not a reverend either.I didnt condone the blatant ripping off of anyones designs(and dont appreciate the implication), but simply stood up when some of you here, and a moderator to boot, wanna BEAT UP on someones character. Again, it seems that the "friendly" aspect of this forum gets farther and farther away. You're wise enough to know that to call out someones honor and/or dignity is in no way polite,is demeaning,and there is no call for it.
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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on Apr 15, 2013 12:06:50 GMT
If we're so loose with rip-off's here i'll submit that most of your albions, past and present, are rip off's that claim to be the most accurate rip off's on the market.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 15, 2013 14:32:00 GMT
All the BS aside (and there is a lot of it) it boils down to this... If you post a picture of someone Else's custom weapon and say 'Where can I get a guy to make something exactly like this?' then I find that to be a very poor and shady practice. Most of the custom makers I know would agree with that. I have no interest in what is or is not legal as far as that is concerned, but to flat out take a picture of someones custom weapon and want someone else to duplicate it is, to me, duplicitous and low... and I do not encourage it, will not support it, and don't think any of the custom makers that are active on these forums would take the job. What people do with their money and what their personal ethics are is their business... but I don't want to see people actively seeking to rip off other custom smiths of their work on these forums, period.
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Post by oolong dao on Apr 15, 2013 15:00:24 GMT
Okay, okay, i know that first of all that the 2500.00 price i was saying i would pay sounded immature, but that's just the way the world is, i have money i want a service provided hopefully from a good provider, or at least how it is in the USA.
Sean, i get what your saying, but i want, what i want. I'm not a sword maker, im not some military desk jockey trying to get someone to make 20K of these for use in the war on terror or drugs or immigrants, Im just some guy from PA who saw a neat design that stood out as modern yet lacking most of the turn offs that i find many blades to find.
So what you might think as shady i only see as a product i want, and will pursue, because to me asking someone to make a slightly altered copy of a bowie knife, and two sabers in the same style is nothing to me while to you it's horrible and sneaky because it's using someone else creative idea.
I find this amusing to a extent because before i took a few weeks off i made a comment on a thread where the op wanted everybody to share designs of knives made from a specific sized piece of spring steel, i funny thing was i said why would anyone do this when someone could steal their designs and use it to make money and was shrugged off because "there isn't much that hasn't been done to a slab of spring steel already".
But i must digress and inquire, Have i done anything either Illegal in real life, or something that is not allowed on the board? By this i don't mean attempting to use the devil's paper to tempt one of the many obviously perfectly incorruptable white knights into making some blades for me?
If so i just want you to know ahead of time, the only reason i pursued the goal with such fervor is because i hate finding something i like and not being able to get it. It's already happened twice previously once with a damascus iklwa, and later a paul ehlers kukrage. So when i find something that stands out and the creator seems to either be dead somewhere or only emerges from the real world one day of october, my first thought is, "Hey i just remembered that forum i go to talk about guns on all day is a forum populated by sword makers" i hope you can understand.
Im willing if there is no other way to pursue my hgoals through other channels.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 15, 2013 15:13:44 GMT
Dao... I can't speak to legality. I've no idea on that front. You have not, to my mind, done anything against forum rules. If you had I or another mod would have issued a warning of some sort. I am only expressing that *I*, and I think the custom makers on this forum that I know, would find the idea of directly coping another smiths design to be distasteful. Now, if it had the smiths blessing then great... but to just copy another smiths design without talking to that smith... most the custom makers I know and interact with would not want to do that. They are protective of their own work, and respectful of others work. If a price is very general in nature, something of a public domain design, then a lot of makers might be willing to do something very similar, or they might want to make a small alteration, something to make it 'theirs' so to speak. As I said... contact BKS and talk with them, you might be able to settle on a design you like that they are willing to make.
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Post by oolong dao on Apr 15, 2013 15:40:22 GMT
Thank you for the advice, but now i think that unless i can get a hold of the creator or a really good maker im just going to end up with something the company feels they wont get sued for and i won't like because if i'm spending money i worked for i want what i want so any talks will be frozen, especially if they have their heads up their honor holes.
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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on Apr 15, 2013 15:44:30 GMT
For the record Shawn, I think its shady too. I'm just not real hip to insulting someones character without knowing more than this thread about them. I consider it direspectful and tactless.
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