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Post by applejack on Mar 20, 2013 16:31:29 GMT
well i have seen a lot of swords made from Damascus steel like the cold steel Battle Gim at the top end and other swords like the Masahiro - Folded Steel Samurai Sword and the bud K Dark Dragon Katana Black Damascus that says it been folded to deliver 2000 layers . Now i had saw something on here(it had the diffent kinds of swords steel and i liitle info about them) and it said Damascus was bad to use for swords. So what is the deal? is it just low end Damascus sucks or what?
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Post by william m on Mar 20, 2013 16:51:07 GMT
It gives nothing to the sword apart from looking pretty. Sword steel was folded in ages past to remove impurities and to introduce carbon. These days we don't need to do this as factory made steel is superior.
So called "Damascus" steel is functionally inferior as with each fold you get the possibility of a bad weld and thus introduce weakness into the blade.
Also read around and you will discover that "damascus" is just a buzzword people use for pattern welded steel. The real "damascus" steel is a crucible steel that was made in India a long time ago.
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Post by Vue on Mar 22, 2013 8:47:23 GMT
FWIW Spanish Catalan forges are a little different to true blast furnace BIll, as you properly already know that true blast furnace only came to Europe during the 13th century and it's use was not widespread.
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Post by chuckinohio on Mar 22, 2013 14:30:31 GMT
PROPERLY done pattern welded blades should pose no problem whatsoever in use.
That is assuming that the material utilized is of good quality, the forge welding process is up to snuff, and the heat treat is done properly.
As William stated previously, the POSSIBILITY does exist for a bad weld in the layers of a pattern welded billet. That said, I have yet to experience any delamination in a pattern welded billet, even the cheap Paki and Indian products. Generally the problem that crops up occasionally with them seems to be softness due to faulty heat treat, or base materials being of questionable origins.
Going cheap, you stand a CHANCE of getting a wonky blade. Buy a Lundemo pattern welded blade, and your chances of getting a good sword have increased by like 1000%.
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Post by william m on Mar 22, 2013 14:42:52 GMT
Mm yes thats a good point chuckinohio.
With mono steel blades you are pretty much only having steel in the billet. With these folded stuff the manufactures most likely introduce all sorts of weird metals and impurities to achieve a pretty blade. Their purpose is to make an interesting blade to look at, not so much one that is structurally sound.
So in conclusion, cheap folded/damascus/pattern welded blades should be on average worse than if it was made out of monosteel due to the manufactures priority on appearance than performance.
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Post by chuckinohio on Mar 22, 2013 14:50:45 GMT
I agree.
With the lower end pattern welded blades, there is always a 'roll of the dice' involved so to speak.
At the least,I would recommend sticking to a vendor that has a track record of producing servicable pattern welded blades . You may have to shell out a few more clams, but what value can you place on confidence in your blade?
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Post by applejack on Mar 22, 2013 17:04:29 GMT
I see thanks, cause i readed online that any sword made out of Damascus steel was just junk display swords and they were worst then a sword of 1045 carbon steel. If i was going to get a Damascus sword(which i am not at this time but IF) it would be the cold steel battle gim or Jade Lion or Musashi Damascus Steel Katana 4096 Layers
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Post by chuckinohio on Mar 25, 2013 14:15:34 GMT
That generalization is just exactly that, a generalization, and is a nasty bit of misinformation to boot.
A pattern welded piece from an accomplished smith will more than likely outperform a piece from a shoddy smith no matter the material that they use.
Even using the best materials available, a slip shod craftsman can botch up a blade from 1095, 5160, T10 or whatever. It is always safe practice to stick with Smiths, Forges, or Companies that produce known good products. When you start dealing with pieces that require a different level of technical proficiency to do correctly, the aforementioned axiom becomes even more applicable.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 25, 2013 15:26:02 GMT
i think what people mean is Cheap too good to be true priced "damaskus" blades are just crap wallhangers and are sub par quality. your not going to get a quality pattern welded sword for 100 bucks. quality pattern welded steel can cost over a hundred dollars just for a small bar enough to make a knife.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Mar 25, 2013 21:24:02 GMT
To illustrate: I've seen here on this forum and elsewhere pictures of wall-hangers with beautiful pattern welded blades... and a threaded rod tack-welded to the end for a tang.
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Post by ninjedi on Mar 26, 2013 17:19:55 GMT
quality varies wildly
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Mar 26, 2013 17:25:15 GMT
Cold Steel Gim and Jade Lion Gim are monosteel, TH swords. Unless that has changed in the last year?
I already have the Gim and I intend to get a Jade Lion Gim and matching dagger, eventually. Getting the latter with a pattern-welded/twist-core/DH blade would be sweet...
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 26, 2013 20:00:44 GMT
i had a "damascus" ebay chinatana from everyones fav vendor RYAN SWORDS, Id be willing to bet my right arm that the blade wasnt even heat treated as it was so soft the tip bent on a bottle. Havent bought a pattern welded blade ever since....although John lundemos pattern welded blades are frigging beautiful
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Talon
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Senior Forumite
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Post by Talon on Mar 26, 2013 21:22:12 GMT
As other's have said,though pattern welded sword's don't give us anymore with regard's to function anymore.If done correctly by a skilled smith,i'm thinking Powning/Miller and other's of that calibre.A pattern welded blade add's beauty and can be just as functional as any modern mono steel sword. It does take a skilled smith with quality material who is used to working in that medium to bring out the best of it as far as i'm concerned.If i was to get a pattern welded blade (the holy grail for me) i would expect to be looking at easily over £1000.I've bought cheap pakistani welded stock before for a blade.Looked nice and hardened about as much as a teletubby in an ice cream parlour
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Post by Kataphractos on Mar 27, 2013 4:33:08 GMT
This. True Damascus steel probably hasn't been forged in centuries. Barring someone melting down old Damascus steel blades ( ) and reforging them.
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Post by Vue on Mar 27, 2013 5:01:35 GMT
Actually if you're talking about true wootz, there are many being made at present by many knife makers. Wootz is no longer a secret nor impossible to make. Go over to Don Fogg's BladeForum, there's a few makers there making wootz just for fun.
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Post by applejack on Mar 27, 2013 20:19:13 GMT
coldsteel.com
JADE LION GIM Specifications: Blade Length: 30" Overall Length: 36 1/4" Steel: Damascus Weight: 31.7 oz Handle: 6 1/4" Scabbard: Polished Samé (Ray Skin) Scabbard w/ Nickle-Silver fittings
The watchful Chinese lion motif is cast in nickel-sliver with almost sculptural detail on the heavy guard and pommels. This provides a compelling contrast to the elegant jade green color of the cord wrapped handles and matching rosewood scabbards that are covered in highly polished samé (ray skin) that's dyed to match the handles. The most attention grabbing feature, however, are the blades themselves. Forged by hand and expertly tempered from our finest Damascus steel, their distinctively subtle swirl pattern bespeaks the elegant beauty of fine craftsmanship combined with the incomparable strength of Damascus steel.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2013 20:45:07 GMT
Most of John's sword's with patterned steel are billets or entire blades from Jerry Rados. radosknives.com/rad1/steel.htmIf you mean wootz, there are a number of people doing a good job at emulating it. All it takes to understand that is to look around a bit. Funny thing. I just cracked a fortune cookie that reads " Character is to man what carbon is to steel" Since I have no character and don't mean to lecture I will leave just those to truths to ponder in response to the quoted lines. Knowledge is at one's fingertips these days.
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Post by jonessteave on Jul 21, 2023 14:09:06 GMT
well i have seen a lot of swords made from Damascus steel like the cold steel Battle Gim at the top end and other swords like the Masahiro - Folded Steel Samurai Sword and the bud K Dark Dragon Katana Black Damascus that says it been folded to deliver 2000 layers . Now i had saw something on here(it had the diffent kinds of damascus steel swords and i liitle info about them) and it said Damascus was bad to use for swords. So what is the deal? is it just low end Damascus sucks or what? I just ordered a Damascus Steel “Hunting Sword” with a blade length 26 inches. I purchased it primarily because I liked the way it looked and if I like what comes, I may order a second one, just to cross them on the wall. However, I am curious… I know virtually nothing about the quality of different steels or what they are best used for. My understanding is that Damascus steel (steel that has a wavy pattern int the metal surface) is basically a steel that may, or may not have different types of steel in it, that is folded as it is forged, sometimes in the hundreds of times and this was originally done to make the steel stronger and make up for the low quality of the steel available back in thy day that it was considered the “best you could get”. Well, the sword I ordered is made from 1095/15N20 ALLOY STEELS (352 true Layers) and I understand that it is not the most corrosion resistant steel out there but is fine as long as you keep it oiled. What I was wondering is how durable is it really, especially compared to other modern blades? Will it hold an edge, and will it bend or break if ir were to be used to say chop a good-sized hardwood branch? Like I said, I ordered it simply because I like the way it looks and have no intention of actually using it like this, I am just curious.
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 21, 2023 14:45:57 GMT
1095/15N20 seems to be a "normal" composition for pattern welded(aka Damascus) steel. The problem is, you need to weld two different steel plates together multiple times. Well made pattern welded steel should be almost equal to a mono steel blade of the same steel type in strength. The problem is, every layer adds a possibility for an error and future failure point and you could end up with gaps and cracks inside the blade (in short: it is harder to produce a strong blade with pattern welding than with mono steel all other things being equal). I have bought some pakistani made blades with beautiful patterns, but most of them I would not trust since I have seen delaminations and cracks in a few I sent back (because of the cracks). If the smith is good, the pattern welded steel should be OK to use. 1095, when made well, holds a good edge and is tough enough, but has a reputation for breaking when heat tretment isn't perfect. 1095 holds an edge better but is less tough than lower 10-series steels (1065, 1055) and the specific spring steels (5160, 65mn, EN45) are even tougher than the lower 10-series and can hold an edge about as well as 1095. 15N20 I have no personal experience with, but it should be at least equal to 1095 at everything. You would need to use 2 steels that are pretty equal in properties for this, else you get unequal wear on the blade. As for rust, both steels aren't stainless, so if you use it, be prepared to get spots, unless you clean it all the time. You can get spots within minutes under the right conditions.
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