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Post by zentesukenVII on Feb 18, 2013 21:02:16 GMT
I have both guns in my inheritance and I will be deciding which to give to my brother, and which to keep for myself. He doesn't care either way so it's up to me.
The .380 ACP is a Walther PPK in nickle. It would come with a couple of standard magazines (not sure what the capacity is). Also it is from the 70s-80s. I'm not sure if it's ever been fired.
The .38 special is a Colt Snubnose revolver in blued. The only thing that I've found that my grandfather had for it was a outside the waistband holster fit for a lefty (I am left handed conveniently).
I like how both guns feel, and the sights on both are average. This will be a concealed carry gun and I will be shooting both very often. Also I am somewhat of a 2nd amendment advocate so this gun will be going on a tactical vest (or at least worn OWB for running and gunning on my minuteman loadout).
I am wondering what you guys think I should go with. I am aware of the lack of power the .380 holds compared to the .38, but at the same time the .380 is very small and easily concealed. One other plus the .38 has is that my girlfriends father owns several .38's and we could pull ammo together in a SHTF or something (another datapoint to consider is that I am a prepper).
I like both guns, but I am leaning towards the .38 special. If you guys could give me some more things to consider in my decision, please feel free.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Feb 18, 2013 23:26:03 GMT
What's the year of production on the Colt snubnose? 6-shot? Can the frame/cylinder handle +P loadings?
I think the S&W revolvers have more robust internals than the Colts. Ruger revolvers even more so. But you should consult the revolver experts in the Firearms subforum.
I'd get a glock for your tactical outfit.
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Post by Onimusha on Feb 18, 2013 23:43:13 GMT
That's not really the case. That colt isn't rated for +p rounds. The .380 has an advantage over the standard .38 spl. Both are expensive guns. I'd keep the Walther. An automatic is flatter than a revolver. That Walther mag should be 7 rounds. You can safely carry it with a round in the chamber with the safety off due to it's DA/SA trigger system. The guns are still made, so you can get extra magazines if you want. I also don't like the cylinder release on a colt. You have to pull back on it. It makes for slow reloads.
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Post by Artelmis on Feb 19, 2013 0:18:23 GMT
Bond Gun /thread but on a more serious note, the caliber of a round makes very little difference if you can place a shot correctly. Shooting a bullseye with a .22 or a .50 is still a bullseye... I'm trying to be PC here. 380 is also cheaper which is a plus, and i prefer semi-autos to revolvers any day of the year. They're a little bit more work to keep active, but they're flatter for less conceal printing, and have less muzzle rise for a followup shot. also... if you weren't going to keep the PPK... and wanted to get rid of it.... hit me up on facebook dudeman
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Post by Onimusha on Feb 19, 2013 0:33:38 GMT
If you decide to keep the .380, I know an ammo manufacturer that makes some hellaceous defense rounds for it, as well as some good practice ammo at a great price.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Feb 19, 2013 1:36:11 GMT
For a CCW I'd go with the .380acp. If the Colt .38spl revolver is fairly old chances are its not going to like +P rounds and as such will also be under powered. Granted either a .380acp or a .38spl will ruin someone's day if it came down to it. I love revolvers and if it were an option I'd keep both but if you've already decided to give one to your brother knowing that whichever one you keep will see daily carry I'd keep the PPK. In the end the Colt will probably be worth more - might be a collectible - but then so might the PPK. My reasonings for going with the PPK is listed below: 1. Slimmer profile means less printing when worn in concealed carry. 2. Smaller gun also makes for better deep concealment. 3. Benefit of multiple mags and ease of reloading means if you've really f'ed up and managed to get yourself into a prolonged fire fight at least you'll have the ability to reload more quickly before you die. 4. .380acp (while actually being a lighter load than .38spl) actually has almost the same muzzle energy that the .38spl has when both are shot from a 2" or 3" barrel. Since neither has any power benefits at this point its better to go with what will be easier to conceal and load. www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/380auto.htmlwww.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.htmlNow about .380acp - don't concern yourself with carrying JHP, HP etc. Just load and carry FMJ. At the speeds that .380acp travel when shot from a small gun like the PPK there's little to no chance that an HP or other such round will have enough speed/energy to actually deform when striking a target. As such they act just like an FMJ and penetrate without expansion or deformation. Essentially if you buy and carry JHP or other such rounds in a .380acp you're just paying more money for ball ammo performance. Personally I'd prefer the extra penetration of ball ammo when carrying a .380acp anyway.
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Post by Onimusha on Feb 19, 2013 1:50:53 GMT
I beg to differ. Hollow points have come a loooong way in the last few years. The hornady xtp and federal hydrashock loads are good choices. My guy has a 90 grain HP load that's absolutely devastating. NEVER use a 9mm caliber fmj for personal defense. Ask anybody who has seen combat in the middle east. The bullets poke a little hole, and the bad guy keeps coming. Their bullets are heavier and faster than your .380 bullets will be.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Feb 19, 2013 2:13:48 GMT
Aside from this there have been other videos with different types of JHP out of a short barreled .380acp NOT expanding. In any case if you're in combat in the middle east and you're only carrying a .380acp you've really screwed up somehow and in any case you're dead.
Frankly if you're carrying a .380acp for personal defense you're already a bit under gunned to start with. Personally I'd rather go for maximum penetration in that cartridge instead of trying to get expansion. Of course perhaps you should try shooting into gelatin or water bottles with your .380acp and post photos/videos of the "absolutely devastating" effects of "your guy's" ammo.
Now that said my wife now carries a Kahr CM9 - she used to CCW a full size 1911 but found the Kahr to be more comfortable to CCW. She carries it loaded with Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel JHP - designed specifically for being shot out of a short barreled handgun - for maximum penetration AND expansion. I'd have suggested that for a .380acp carry but well they don't make it for that caliber.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Feb 19, 2013 2:44:06 GMT
To clarify I am a gun noob, and I'm only 19 at the moment. I would like to plan what I'm doing ahead of time so I can practice with it that much before I carry it.
Check out tnoutdoors9 on youtube for some really well done ammo tests of both rounds, as well as many many other.
I have been told by people that the 2 inch barrel on the Colt will be extremely inaccurate. I always prefer accuracy over power. That being said, if I did go with the PPK (I think I will) I will undoubtedly keep FMJ in it. I think of perhaps needing to shoot through some cover. I tend to think that if I am worried about over penetrating, it will in fact under penetrate and the 380 really is not very powerful. I know many people who wouldn't ever carry it.
Ha....Penetration.
Not to mention for a starter tactical gun the PPK can at least get a MOLLE blackhawk style holster I may not have looked hard enough but I have not seen any revolver holsters like the Blackhawk that isn't custom made. And considering I'm a lefty, holsters are hard to come by for more exotic carry guns. M plan for carry is a out-side the waistband under a button-down or a jacket. IWB holsters kinda scare me, but if it's small of the back I think I'd like it more. I am a slim guy so it's easy to print. I think I'd prefer easier access under a loose layer of clothing. I don't wear shirts tucked in, and if I do it's under a jacket of some sort.
Thanks for the replies guys. I value the data points you guys present.
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Post by Onimusha on Feb 19, 2013 3:46:32 GMT
That .380 is more powerful than you think. That being said, there is no round large enough to make up for poor shot placement. As for the 2" barrel, it's not that a shorter barrel iIs less accurate. It's just that shorter guns are harder to shoot accurately. Now, the colt may be inaccurate. I don't know.
Sam, I can do better than that. I'll give you a box of that ammo to try. How 'bout it?
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Post by Jack Tar on Feb 19, 2013 4:10:17 GMT
I'm probably going to tick off somebody but even if you can't use +P loads in the revolver I'd still take it.
This is not advice. It's just an observation. +P or even +P+ isn't likely to blow apart a well made revolver like, I'm guessing, your Colt Detective. Not all at once.
If you shop around you can find loads for your .38 that approach .357.
But the deal is if that's what I wanted to shoot, I wouldn't use an antique. I'd get something like a Smith J frame in .357. Something built to take it.
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Post by KentsOkay on Feb 19, 2013 4:16:45 GMT
OP, why so mall ninja?
As most people have outlined, the PPK will be the superior CCW choice when you hit 21. Also, you get +10 to all Charisma related checks, when used in conjunction with suits, tuxedos, or nudity.
The Colt is not inherently inaccurate because the barrel is only two inches, it is inaccurate because small guns are more difficult to shoot. That's why if it was a perfect world we'd all be able to carry around Glock 17's or other preferred full size gun (a LOT of people do claim to conceal a full size 1911 like its something super cool only they can do, more power to them [no stab at you Sam H, just something I've noticed across the net and in gun shops everywhere]). I think .380 ACP is inferior to the Autoloading Trinity of 9/40/45, or the Mighty Magnums, but it's better than harsh words or a .22 Because reloads will be faster on the PPK than the Colt, I would consider it superior when it comes to firepower.
I REALLY want a PPK pattern gun in 9mm for concealed carry (love that Charisma bonus), but they aren't cheap so I will probably end up with a Kahr or Kel-Tec.
Also, Jack, a 38 sp load that is close to 357 magnum IS a 357 magnum load (blah blah 1 or 2mm's longer) and should not be used in some old wheel gun not built for the pressures.
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Post by Jack Tar on Feb 19, 2013 4:39:30 GMT
I agree. You have no argument with me. Which is why I said I wouldn't shoot it through an antique.
Two points about the revolver. There may be some autos that don't involve the barrel unlocking and moving about when you fire it. But revolvers have a thick heavy barrel screwed into the frame. They're pretty accurate.
One thing most people don't think about is if you have to go mano a mano a snubbie gives the other guy less leverage.
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Post by Onimusha on Feb 19, 2013 4:45:11 GMT
DO NOT shoot +p ammo in that colt. It's a valuable collectors' item. They haven't been made for quite some time. It wasn't designed for those loads. Whichever you chose, practice as much as you can, and load it with good hollow points. If you pick the Walther, keep it clean (you should really do this either way).
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Post by Jack Tar on Feb 19, 2013 4:52:14 GMT
I could not have said it any better. If anyone is interested in a self-defense guns sell the heirlooms and buy a new gun.
At the very least +P rounds will shake it apart over time.
If you value the gun, IF, and your life get a second one. That's cheap in the long run.
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Post by Onimusha on Feb 19, 2013 5:18:29 GMT
Ok, I have to ask. What will you be running around in a tac vest for? I'd go IWB with either.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Feb 19, 2013 9:11:29 GMT
It's my right as an American to bear arms. I enjoy running n gunning, and I do it as a form of exercise. Let's leave that alone for now on....
It's not a matter of "this is going to be my carry gun forever". I'm simply asking which would be the best to start off with. Sorry if I didn't clarify. These guns are very sentimental for me for a lot of reasons and i'd prefer to keep them in a display case for the most part. But since my grandfather carried them, I would like to as well.
Lol I am pretty "Mall Ninja" I guess. I don't have a lot of experience with guns, but I am actively learning ALOT everyday. I'm just trying to plan ahead as much as I can to avoid wasting time and money.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Feb 19, 2013 9:18:20 GMT
I also have fired only a few handguns. 3 revolvers, a 22 with a 5 inch, a .38 with a 5 inch and a 357 with an 8 inch. Only one semi-auto pistol and it was a S&W MP9.
I noticed as the size of the barrel shortened, the recoil increased, so yeah that's taken into consideration. However as inexperienced as I am I noticed the 9mm was very snappy and it was more difficult to re-aim and control the muzzle rise. People have told me that as the caliber goes up for semi-auto pistols the snap reduces and it more of a pushing back force like a revolver. I haven't shot either one very much, but I do prefer a back-kick, as opposed to muzzle rise if you guys get what I mean.
Just something to consider.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Feb 19, 2013 11:17:24 GMT
for the 38 use +P when carrying, wad cutter target loads when practising, PPK is great since it packs flat against you, built by Walther means it will outlast you and you can pass it on to your kids, use Winchester Silvertips, the FBI did a long term study on rounds that worked in real situations, the 32 and 380 Silvertips got the thumbs up.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Feb 19, 2013 14:08:29 GMT
I would love to take you up on that offer. While I no longer have any guns that shoot .380acp I know a couple guys that do. I would like to ask though that we wait till it gets warmer to do any testing since I abhor cold weather and as such shoot very little in winter.
If you're serious about providing a box of ammo for testing purposes shoot me a pm and I'll give you my address. When i do the reading I'll video it and post it here.
Dammed phone. I meant when I do the testing, not reading.
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