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Post by zentesukenVII on Feb 24, 2013 20:32:17 GMT
As in wear a hat to the bar, while leaving my weapon at home. I must not have made that clear enough, it was a joke. I think everyone needs to lighten up a bit.... Why do you think I would ever wear tactical gear in a public place? I'll give you a call Sam. I obviously am a noob to firearms, but I think what you guys aren't seeing is that I do have a lot of knowledge about the topic, just not the experience to go along with it. This is why I ask broad questions, because I have a lot to learn. The mall ninja crap is really stupid. So because tactical shooting interests me, I am now a mall ninja? I buy tactical gear for airsoft. I think "Hey, this stuff is cool, I could use it for convenience while doing real shooting". That way I feel like I'm not just wasting my money on a sport. I'm no expert on anything, hell I'm barely a novice. Where in my posts am I saying "This is what I am going to do, and you guys are wrong." I got a gun to defend myself, not to hunt. In fact the only reason I will be hunting is to learn ho to do it if my life ever depends on it, and it familiarize myself with my weapon. Why is this wrong? I really feel an elitist attitude coming from some of you guys. You guys are giving me the impression that because I am from a younger generation, I am automatically inferior because you guys have been shooting for years etc. And since I use the internet as my primary source of information I am a wannabe poser etc. Tell me exactly how do you purpose I learn if I do not ask questions and do research? Am I just not allowed to carry until I am 40 years old and have all this sacred "experience" that you guys have? I'm not saying you guys don't know what your talking about, I know that you do! I am simply saying it really seems like you guys have an automatic distaste for people who are new to the firearms community. I am asking a lot, and not acting at all. I want to learn, get opinions and pointers, and make sure I have the right attitude to take on this responsibility. I really am getting the idea that you guys think only you should CCW and that you were never young and new to stuff.
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Post by birdman on Feb 24, 2013 20:56:38 GMT
Not necessarily so, as far as the accuracy goes. My favorite CC gun is the (discontinued) Taurus 606CH, which is a medium-frame, stainless steel DAO 6-shot snub in .357 magnum. I prefer to shoot .38 Specials in it, partially because full-house .357's are not supposed to be conducive to long life in medium-frame guns, and partially because the recoil and muzzle blast (not to mention the fireball) are horrific. At self-defense ranges (which I consider to be at 15 feet or less), and using the standard fixed sights, I can hit what I am aiming at consistently, though the .38 Special rounds tend to hit about 4" lower than the .357 rounds (maybe because of the lower velocity). Just means I'd hit an attacker in the neck instead of between the eyes...
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Post by Onimusha on Feb 25, 2013 0:10:47 GMT
It doesn't matter if you have a gun or not. There was a case years ago of a man who was assaulted in his car during a traffic jam. The man locked his doors and scared the guy off by telling him he would call the police. The assailant, seeing the man's NRA bumper sticker, called the police and said that the man had pulled a glock on him. The man was arrested for assault with a deadly weapon. Even after it was proven that the man didn't own a glock, the prosecutor still tried to say he had thrown the gun out. He was acquitted, but he was left with huge legal bills and the trauma of the experience. The court system isn't freindly to self defense. You have to be careful, especially in your state.
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Post by Jack Tar on Feb 25, 2013 0:46:23 GMT
zentesuken, I think you're taking it the wrong way. It isn't experience you need but respect for that life-taker you're planning to pack around and the responsibility that comes with it. That's not something that's age contingent. There are 70 year olds who lack that respect for the awesome consequences of turning a gun on someone. I understand where Sam H is coming from, and frankly I went back through and looked at my comments to make sure I didn't encourage you in some of your less mature moments.
But I don't want to lecture you because you're 19 (I should have prefaced my remarks about bars and drinking with "When you turn 21"). By definition you're not mature enough to carry concealed; that's why you can't get a license at your age. Don't take that as elitist. It's just a fact that we all had to live with in one way or another when we were 19 and too young to qualify to do one thing or another.
When you're old enough to get a CCW you will no doubt be required to take a class. Unless you live in a state like Alaska where you can just carry concealed as a right. The class I took in Texas was all about the law and the responsibilities that come with carrying a gun. No tactics; just an easy marksmanship test at the end. It was almost designed to talk you out of even wanting to get your license. Which is why I harped about the legal liabilities. You haven't really survived a defensive shooting until the law is done putting everything you did under a microscope and you come out the other side without going to prison or getting sued. One of my takeaway was to line up a lawyer ahead of time and take out a million dollar umbrella policy on my homeowner's insurance. Call me a boy scout, but my motto is "be prepared." YMMV.
It would be an excellent idea to get more advanced instruction than merely the basic CCW class. That would accomplish two things. First, it will make you more prepared to use your gun should the need arise and drill into your head that you're talking about life and death. Which is nothing to take lightly or joke about (and keep in mind that if you do joke about it those comments can come back and bite you in any legal proceeding). Second, should you be involved in a shooting that will help convince the investigators, the prosecutor, and if it comes to it a jury you're a man who takes your responsibilities seriously and is well trained to do so.
Regarding the Colt, as expected I drew fire when I mentioned +P and +P+ ammo. As I mentioned in my first comment on the subject I WOULD NOT fire those through an antique. But have we established your Colt Detective Special is an antique? That snubbie had a very long production run, with breaks into the '90s at least. I recommend you contact Colt with the S/N and find out the vintage of your revolver before deciding whether to go with that or the PPK. As you can probably tell I'm not a fan of the PPK but that's your decision if you're going to get rid of one. Colt can tell you if your revolver is suitable for +P ammo and if so how much you can use before getting it tuned.
A two inch barrel isn't necessarily going to be inaccurate (and an eight inch barrel isn't necessarily going to be accurate). I mentioned earlier that one thing I like about a revolver as opposed to an auto is that the barrel doesn't unlock and swing around. I love my 1911s but for reliability some of the older ones do not have a very well fitted barrel bushing so they aren't superbly accurate. But you can do some fine shooting with a snubbie. When I was at AOCS in the late '80s we qualified with the J-frame Smiths that were then standard issue for aircrew. Several in my class (not me) shot expert with them.
I hope you don't take any of the foregoing as elitist. It's not my intent.
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Sam H
Member
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Post by Sam H on Feb 26, 2013 2:54:36 GMT
I'm going to address your post in points as you make them.
1. Lighten up... with our rights currently under attack as they are here you want us to lighten up and crack jokes, wear stupid gear etc. and generally act like uncouth idiots carrying guns? Really?
2. Why would I think you'd ever wear tactical gear in a public place? Simple - go back and read your posts and you'll see you give off the impression of being that way at this point.
3. Mall ninja... oh man...
YOU ARE A MALL NINJA at this point. Lots of talk, some internet searches and all sorts of tactical gear (for airsoft) that you're now transitioning to real firearms but you actually have little to no experience at all regarding what it really is to own and carry a firearm or for that matter to have been in combat. Now I've got no actual combat experience and the closest I've come is being in the wrong place at the wrong time and having two gangs shoot at each other while I was across the street... got hit in the hip with a stray .25 caliber round for that stupidity.
Now about tactical shooting - I enjoy what you call tactical shooting too. I love what you call run and gun. I like to engage multiple targets with different firearm types - handgun, rifle and shotgun. In its basic form its called practical shooting. With all three types of firearms involved its called 3-gun shooting. There are plenty of competitions around for that, just not really any in WI sadly. I still practice it and practice what I was taught. I do not however have a tactical vest, chest/shoulder holster rig, tactical ammo carriers etc. When I shoot I don't go to the range wearing tactical clothing or BDUs/camo, a gun belt, gun hats etc. I go dressed as I normally dressed or if I know I'm going to be shooting prone I dress down - grubby jeans and shirts. Tactical stuff is more like tacticool. Tacticool = mall ninja. Get my drift?
4. A gun to defend yourself with... well if you are going to defend yourself with a 12ga. then take a self defense shotgun course. Yes they do exist. Going hunting with a shotgun gives you the basics of shotgun handling but its not the same. Again your inexperience shows through.
5. Elitist attitude huh? That's not what I'd call it. Its more of a, "I am very protective of my rights under the Second Amendment and when someone does something that could give the antis more fuel for their fight against us I get VERY upset about it." attitude. In regards to elitism yes there is a bit of that - as in there are guys here on this forum that I couldn't possibly consider myself in league with. Mike Harris, Larry Jordan, and Odingaard are a few that come to mind right off the top of my head. They've got years and years of shooting on me, have access to better training facilities and have access to better training resources ie. courses, seminars etc. In Odingaard's case he's in the midst of it all and that experience trumps anything I have period. In regards to me and you - well do I have to explain?
6. How are you supposed to learn? How about get off your rear end, quit playing on the computer, give up 1 day of airsoft each weekend and GO SHOOT THE GUNS YOU HAVE! Instead of playing around why not go get the experience and knowledge that you so dearly desire? The more you shoot your guns the more comfortable you'll be with them and the better you'll be in terms of using them. The more you're exposed to what its like to shoot a real gun the more you will understand the concept of shooting and that will help you a lot in your learning process. Aside from that go get some training. I think this will be the seventh or eighth time I've told you that now... maybe more. You want to learn and not be a poser? Put the time, energy and money into it.
Personally I'm trying to save up for a trip to Gunsite but with a family of 5 kids I'm finding it hard to keep money set aside for that when the kids need new clothes, something in the house needs to be repaired/replaced, the car needs fixing etc. You're single, live at home with your parents (I assume unless you're one of the few who actually moved away from home at the age of 18 like I did), and don't have a wife or kids. The girlfriend doesn't count - not till you guys are either married or living together outside of either of your parents' houses (and not grandma's either). Basically its a lot easier for you to actually set money aside for actual firearms training than it is for me. Give up some of your luxuries (like airsoft and buying tacticool gear or even put aside the sword hobby for a while) and you'll find you can come up with the money awfully quickly.
If you really think this then you're so far from ready its not even funny. Instead of looking at it like you're still just a kid man up and follow the advice you'd been given. If you won't follow the advice you received and instead will just complain about how we're not being nice to you instead of blowing smoke up your arse then don't ask for advice in the first place.
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Sébastien
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Retired Moderator
Posts: 2,967
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Post by Sébastien on Feb 26, 2013 3:10:04 GMT
Sam H, can you please post without throwing a tantrum when someone writes something that you don't like.
IMHO, Zen has expressed his opinion and has done so politely.
You don't have to agree with it, but you have to express your disagreement in a constructive and useful way.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Feb 26, 2013 3:25:41 GMT
I apologize Sebastian if I'm coming off as harsh in my post toward him.
However over the past year of so Zen has asked for advice and he's been given it. Thus far he's not taken the advice he's been given and for the most part gives meaningless posts saying he agrees but then doesn't.
I know that in Canada your firearms rights have already been surrendered but here it isn't the case and actions such as his only give those who would try to wrench our rights from us more reason to do so.
What I said about him isn't a tantrum - its called being honest about what the situation is. Thus far he's asked questions and when he isn't given the answer he wants to hear he is the one who throws a tantrum by whining and complaining about it. He just manages to sound more polite about it than I care to put the effort into at this point. About being polite though, I figure I was quite polite about this. I'd have said far worse things if I were speaking to him in person and not on the friendliest sword forum on the web.
I've offered, on multiple occasions, to help teach him what I know and at no cost to him aside from his own ammo costs... This thread isn't the first time I've made the offer and as such he has made no real effort to take advantage of what I've offered. I am sure this is in part due to the fact that he has no desire to drive an hour and a half to learn about firearms when he believes he can get all the knowledge and experience he wants from the internet and airsoft. The other part that I believe he doesn't make the effort into taking advantage of my offers is that he doesn't want to learn what I have to teach him and instead prefers to remain as he is now. In any case the offer has been made but if he chooses not to accept my offer that's his prerogative. However should he choose to go about in public and make himself just another statistic for the anti gun people to use against us then he is now endangering the rights of others (namely me) and as such I will take a very serious issue with that. My "harsh" comments were posted intentionally to show my disdain toward what he's trying to do and what he's doing and of course my offer to teach him is an attempt to show him what he needs to do if he intends to carry weapons in public.
People on this forum have been far more enthusiastic and passionate about sword safety and keeping swords in a good light but that is far less a threat than the attack on our gun rights. I'm simply following suit on something that means much more than swords... since if guns in this country are banned then swords will most likely follow - look at Great Britain and even your own Canada.
Edit: I'll cease posting on this particular thread now however since I feel that at this point the ball is in his court and whatever he chooses to do I have nothing else to say publicly about the matter. If I am addressed directly in this thread though I will respond but aside from that I'll leave this one alone so as to keep it... civil.
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Sébastien
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Retired Moderator
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Post by Sébastien on Feb 26, 2013 4:46:39 GMT
I appreciate your input, Sam.
I understand your honesty, however, I think beeing frank and honest is one thing, beeing needlessly abrasive is another. In my opinion, although you seem to try to promote safe, responsible gun owning/using, your last few posts went too far in their tone. Like I said in my earlier post, if you can't have a constructive tone, think a few times before hitting the ''submit'' icon. As to Zen's conduct, I don't see anything that warrants breaking the forum's rules. So, stay polite and constructive, or think a few times before posting.
As to gun rights in the USA and elsewhere, those aren't part of this debate and we really don't want to slide down that slippery slope. Whatever we like it or not, there will likely always be places in the world where gun controls is tight, others where gun rights are strong, and both will have plenty of defenders and opponents. This isn't the place to promote the gun rights vs gun control debate nor is ''but I want to defend the 2nd amendment!'' an excuse to be abrasive with other forumnites.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Feb 26, 2013 7:51:16 GMT
Actually the reason I haven't gotten out there is because I don't have a license thanks to tickets that needed to be paid off, Thankfully they have been and I just need to take my driving course. Unfortunately I have a girlfriend who happily drives me around so I've been lazy and not gotten to the DMV due to my girlfriend's and I differing work schedule. Taking the bus this week though, yippee! I guess I have jacked up priorities, but thats not whats this thread is about.
I go to the range when I can afford it and get out there. Airsoft is right down the road, cheaper and better exercise. Going to the range is unfortunately a luxury. I will be going on a three day shooting trip in March, I'll be putting another 500 rounds through my gun. I only have about 1300 shots fired my myself in my gun, but that was enough for me to learn to respect the muzzle I follow the four rules all the time. And the tactical gear stays at home when I do this. It's fun for when I'm at our land, but yes at the range it is stupid and not needed. I can discern.
I do my part to make gun owners look good outside of this forum that I doubt the biased media is looking at. Where it matters I keep it serious. In here I can ask stupid questions and not upset anybody...Or maybe not, but I get where your coming from Sam. I know you don't want anything stupid and unnecessary to happen because of me, but I ask these questions for information and knowledge, so that when I am ready to carry I can do it safe and effectively. I've taken more of your advice than you think.
Anyways, I think I got my data for what gun I should carry and I will probably go with the PPK. Maybe I'll get a different gun before I get that and I carry that, we will see. Thanks for the replies guys.
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Post by Jack Tar on Feb 26, 2013 18:36:34 GMT
That's disappointing. I think you'd be better armed with the Colt. By the way, I went to the Colt website and retrieved this: www.coltsmfg.com/CustomerServices/FAQ.aspxI'm a reloader. I've called ammo component manufacturers and firearms manufacturers whenever anything was unclear to me. I've always easily found someone willing to help. If it were up to me, I wouldn't fire +P ammo in a Colt Detective Special manufactured in the '20s. I wouldn't lose sleep over putting a few cylinders full of +P ammo through the same model manufactured in the '70s. If there was any doubt I'd call and ask. Others have mentioned that the .380 is more powerful than people give it credit for. Maybe true. But what will your PPK reliably function with? The revolver doesn't rely on the ammo to function. If I were in your shoes I would definitely find out if +P ammo was safe in that revolver and if it were I'd stick with that rather than the Walther. Still the PPK isn't a bad gun, and it's your choice not mine.
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Post by birdman on Feb 26, 2013 19:18:19 GMT
Something else to keep in mind is, there ARE decent non-+P .38 special loads out there. You don't have to stick with the old 158-grain lead round-nose "police widow maker" rounds that gave the .38 special standard pressure rounds a bad name. A semi-wadcutter lead hollow point wouldn't be a bad choice, for example. Some people also like to hand-load hollowbase lead wadcutters backwards, making something equivalent to the old late 19th century British "manstopper" loads. Not terribly accurate over longer ranges, due to the ballistic inefficiency of the bullet, but adequate for close-range self defense. Oh, and while some may argue that "using handloads opens you up for legal problems if you use them in a defensive situation", I researched this while I was a law-enforcement student in college (graduated in 1994), and there had been absolutely NO cases where that had ever been used by a prosecutor in court. Besides that, better to be tried by twelve than carried away slowly by six.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Feb 26, 2013 19:46:42 GMT
Yeah I'm gonna look at the Colt when I can and I'll post some more information on when it was made etc. to determine whether or not it can accept +p loads. I imagine it was made before 1980. If it can, I may re think my decision. That being said I may end up not carrying either one of these guns, but I wanted to know which one would be the better choice. I'd prefer to leave the heirlooms at home. If I did shoot in self defense would the gun be taken away even if they found me innocent and with just cause? I'd prefer not to lose my Grandfather's gun, so that's another reason I will try and replace either gun asap for carry with something less valuable and more powerful.
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Post by Jack Tar on Feb 26, 2013 20:06:10 GMT
Birdman makes very good points.
I just don't think a standard .38 load in a revolver is all that much better than a .380.
Which isn't to say that a +P load makes a .38 head and shoulders above a .380. But it gives it an edge in power.
It's been a while since I've had a .380. I had a .380 DAO stainless pistol which I was favorably disposed toward. It was nice and flat and the spare mag took up less space than a Zippo lighter (I don't smoke but I figure I shouldn't walk around without a way to make fire just in case a survival situation arises and besides it's cool to be able to light girls' smokes in bars where smoking hasn't been outlawed).
I don't think I was ever able to find a commercial load with a heavier bullet than 90 grains. I've heard they load 100 grain bullets in the .380. But in .38 special you can find loads up to 200 grains. And then they started making locked breech 9mm pistols in the same size package so I got rid of it. Thus endeth my brief infatuation with the .380.
I just never could develop much confidence in it.
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Post by Jack Tar on Feb 26, 2013 20:11:09 GMT
Depending on the jurisdiction, if you shoot in self-defense all your guns will be seized.
This is one reason I talked to a lawyer (and took out an umbrella policy) after I took my CCW class to get licensed.
Do not rely on something some guy on the internet tells you. Including me.
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Post by Jack Tar on Feb 26, 2013 20:13:25 GMT
The degree of difficulty of getting the guns back also varies from place to place.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Feb 26, 2013 20:28:11 GMT
That is very troubling, but being alive and not having the gun is better than being dead. One more reason to exercise good judgement I guess.
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Post by Jack Tar on Feb 26, 2013 21:28:26 GMT
The reason to exercise good judgement is that someone can wind up dead. Somebody can be a bad guy with a rap sheet as long as your arm and the thing is if you take his life when you didn't need to you might get away with it. But can you live with it? I personally couldn't live with the fact that I was worse than some felon I shot because I casually or carelessly took a life when he hadn't. But that the only reason I'm not in prison is because the guy I shot had record of stealing cars so the prosecutor didn't think it was worth dragging me into court.
I think you will find that if you carry a concealed weapon, and have any sense of humanity at all, you will avoid fights. This is something I find our European and Australian friends don't realize. If you have the maturity to carry that weapon you will find you don't say things that you otherwise might have said. You don't do things you otherwise you might have done. Because you now have something to think about that you didn't have to think about before. There's a gun there, and it doesn't come with an eraser.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Feb 26, 2013 22:04:10 GMT
I totally agree. I have done some pretty intense thinking about how I would really feel after taking a life, even if it was completely justified. I really would hate to ever have to hurt someone, I have never been the kind of person to take fighting lightly. Hell, I don't even like violent video games really.
I really do find it sickening that humans have developed such efficient weapon systems to use to kill each other. I really hate that I feel that I must utilize these things, but my self preservation is important to me. I have been mugged at knife point and shot at from across a river for no reason and I have never felt so helpless. I had to run out in the open while being shot at by a .22 and grab my ex girlfriend out of the river she had fallen into while trying to escape. We rushed behind a fallen tree and I just stayed on top of her to keep her from getting up and getting shot. Luckily after we called the police they found the guys and detained them without anyone getting hurt. This was when I was 14 and it really stuck with me.
I have never been one to start problems ever in public. I especially would never try and escalated a problem already at hand. My first instinct (with a weapon or without) is to de-escalate, and/or flee. I am not going to retaliate to a problem when I normally wouldn't just because I have a gun. I don't want to carry because I want to be able to kill people. I want to carry because there are messed up people who would kill me.
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Post by Jack Tar on Feb 26, 2013 22:53:16 GMT
zen, I have to admit I have fewer concerns about you carrying concealed than does Sam H. But that's probably a relic of my naval career in which I got a new crop of you guys every year for 20 years. Most of whom you could trust with a 20mm chain gun, once you convinced them it was important to think about what it was they were doing.
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