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Post by mirko_j on Jan 14, 2013 10:20:08 GMT
Hello all, First time here and just getting wet feet into owning an katana even thou I'm fan like whole life. Internet made it possible sooo. I have similar post on another forum but looking for some opinions here as well. Couple days ago I received my first order from Ryan Swords. I know that some people don't think high about him as I saw, but I did get link from another friend and saw some god posts as well so I decided to try for start. I've ordered this one: www.ryansword.com/high-quality-combined-material-cranetortoise-tsuba-japanese-katana-samurai-sword-ryan405-p-160.html?zenid=b453d014192f7370b6d3f5943b3e52ecAnd after month of waiting, Christmas time I guess slowed it a bit too, I've got it broken! Looks like something really heavy dropped on package during transit as there is clear mark of hit and it hit at worst place possible. check this out: www.dropbox.com/s/kgur9ciocv7lg ... .32.35.jpg www.dropbox.com/s/p7go71eor34qv ... .44.22.jpg www.dropbox.com/s/v579xx5m4u52n ... .44.28.jpg Anyway they've bin really good to me and will send me new sword, no problems there. They even were fine with change of order so I just sent difference in price and ordered this new sword to be in new shipment: www.ryansword.com/high-quality-combined-material-clay-temperedabrasive-japanese-katana-sword-ryan369-p-539.htmlNow I just hope that everything will go smooth this time. If someone could give me his opinion on this new sword I would be more than welcomed. I know that there are other providers and people feels better about them, there are more than enough info about that on forum but I would love to hear someone more experience opinion on this particular sword. I'm also aware that I will probably "waste" some money before getting a bit more into all of this and before I find an katana that will work for me and by my final love Thank you and looking forward to learn more about my old / new love. All the best!
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George
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Post by George on Jan 14, 2013 11:34:50 GMT
WOW!! For a sword to break like that INSIDE Poly packaging... Wow. I would be VERY careful if you plan to cut with your Ryan sword. If you want it for display, then great if you got something you liked good on you
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Jan 14, 2013 14:07:12 GMT
That is one brittle sword! you might be able to make a wakizashi out of the remainder but hang it on a wall!
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Post by Rafael on Jan 14, 2013 19:14:29 GMT
The new sword you ordered instead does actually look a lot better than the previous one, in general Japanese-style swords with Dragons (or other things) engraved on the blade is a very bad sign as far as quality. The break in the first sword was probably more a matter of it being poorly tempered to begin with and not that something really heavy happened to hit it in exactly the right spot to break it. You should probably be glad something fell on the box and broke the sword because otherwise it may have broken while you were trying to cut with it, maybe injuring you or somebody else.
Given what you have now seen about the temper quality end result of the forging process used in one of this manufacturer's swords firsthand, you should probably think long and hard before you use any Ryan-sword for cutting. My advice would be hanging on the wall and let I remind you of the importance of buying from a source with a good reputation.
If I was you it would probably be really hard for me to never test the sword, but it's probably what you need to do. Lots of us have made bad purchases before finally getting some quality items, so don't feel too bad. If you only end up with one crappy sword before you start buying quality ones then you're doing a lot better than me!
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Post by Rafael on Jan 14, 2013 21:44:12 GMT
I've been wondering about this difference between T 10 and 1095 for a while now. I tried to start a conversation about it a while back but people are way more interested in what manufacturers are better then talking about what steel is better. But I really just want to understand the differences and contrast the attributes of each, it's not really trying to declare what is the best but I would like to understand what makes each different and then decide which Is better for different applications. Probably if I had worded my question like that originally, I would have got a lot more help lol! The way I understand it so far T10 has higher carbon 1% or more and also has more silicon compared to 1095. And then supposedly "real" T10 steel is a tungsten alloy, which gives the metal more flexibility and durability; this extra flexibility and durability is I guess thought to balance out any increased brittleness resulting from the higher carbon content compared to 1095. Where it starts to get confusing as hell is when we get the revelation that all of the T10 steel in China is being made completely without tungsten, and is essentially a highcarbon version of the --60 series spring steels; ie holds an edge better compared to them but has similar flexibility, shear strength or metachlorions or whatever lol. So assuming all of this is true when people talk about how great the T10 katanas are that Paul was reviewing on the main site are those being made with Chinese T10 steel that does not contain tungsten. Is it possible to even get swords with T10 made with tungsten alloy, or is it all this other Chinese version? And finally if the swords Paul is reviewing that are made with this famous tungsten alloy have all of these awesome properties of durability and edge retention then does it even matter what the hell is in the alloy to begin with? I'm not totall sure, it's at this part of the thought process that I always start to get a headache and decide to think about something else for a while :shock: Btw this is where my original information about T10 came from, in case anyone who has already been born has not already seen it linked twice before : www.sword-manufacturers-guide.co ... teels.html
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Post by johnwalter on Jan 15, 2013 2:28:59 GMT
That sucks mirko! I think I would just want my money back tho after seeing those pics.Good luck whatever you do.
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Post by ineffableone on Jan 15, 2013 4:28:41 GMT
I think the broken sword probably was a blessing in disguise and you probably lucked out having it break in shipping rather in hand.
While the newer sword you went with looks nicer, from what I could see it looked over priced. I think it looked closer to a $250-$300 sword rather than $400+. But then value is partially in what the buyer feels is worth it. From what I have heard Ryanswords is known for poor craftsmanship in lower price swords and over pricing for better quality. It sort of seems to me you got both. The first sword likely lower quality and broke after shipping impact, and the second likely decent quality but at a slightly higher price than others would charge.
If your happy though with your newer sword then good. I think after awhile and experience you might find other companies and get to know better choices than Rayan. But I imagine the 2nd sword will do you well for a 1st sword.
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Post by mirko_j on Jan 15, 2013 8:28:00 GMT
First of all I really don't think that same blade I've got broken in first shipment would break that easily during some standard backyard bottle cutting for fun. One thing are bottles and completely other thing is hit like it got at that spot during shipment. It could maybe even break with some torture on the blade hitting metal pipes and who knows what but still for some fun... I don't think so. Also I've just yesterday took it apart just to get familiar with how katana is made, images are one thing but seeing and holding all pieces in real is another. It does have nice full tang and not some rat tail so no problems there as well. Finally I just started in this nice hobby and even if I do get some "bad" swords at first I mean c'mon. I see a lot of posts and it seems to me that now everyone wanna get super blade that is some monster destroyer for cheap price. You get what you pay for pure and clear. If I paid like 1000-2000-5000 and something like this happened than I would b really pi**ed, but this is for fun for now and I'm aware that I won;t get sword that I can go around and destroy everything in it's path like in some anime I just wanted to be sure that sword won;t break up or go flying from the handle for some standard bottle cutting in the backyard. Ryan Sword had really great customer support and I'm happy with it so far. As for blades it self as long as it don;t breal, and it shouldn't on some fun bottle cutting sessions it is good to go Thanks and please guys, less personal fighting and more learning and sharing will go long way. If you do know for fact that this or that manufacturer is really using something else than advertised then get some solid proof showing what is it about instead of simple forum rumors and basing whole fight on those That is really serious issue but nothing can be based on just chat and rumors, internet is full of that and it is getting harder and harder to through bunch of garbage before getting really good information.
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George
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Post by George on Jan 15, 2013 10:35:18 GMT
Man a sword should never break like that from shipping! Bend yes, chip... Maybe but clean snap? Nope sorry.
Yes, that first Ryan sword would have been VERY dangerous to use. If you got the edge alignment wrong, hit a hard bit of plastic cutting bottles, with good technique you could snap a crappy made sword like the one in your first pics.
Metal pipes! Please no!
I think people cop flack as this forum is here to guide and assist people wanting to buy good quality cheap swords. People time and time again show up (obviously they found the site in the first place) with a new sword they just got that everyone basically has said is crap, and ask what people think. I for one know its frustrating, as i was here for about 2 months talking and researching before i purchased my first real sword.
Thats the point and i think alot of people miss that key part. If you dont wanna be told what you got is a rip off, junk, dangerous or a 'wall hangar', dont jump in the deep end without first testing the water. ASK! Thats what the forum is here for and you will find everyone is very happy to answer the questions you have. Just dont get annoyed when they give you an answer you dont want to hear.
If you wanted a really good sword, great for cutting with some traditional forging techniques, with a little research you could have spent $80, got a Musashi Bamboo and have a sword you know wont be sempr!ni.
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Post by lamebmx on Jan 15, 2013 11:10:35 GMT
Waste $80 on a DH Musashi. Use them both. While its not perfect, and not quite as nice looking, it will set the bar much higher for what you expect for your money. It is tough to tell from the ebay pictures but the hamon will probably stand out better. The wrap will be on par and if not better. It will be a lot more plain, but it will arrive in 1 piece, and after a summer of cutting you will understand more.
I did not even look at your pictures of how it broke, it should not have happened. After having personally pushed swords to the breaking point, there is no feasible way it would break. You need more than just force to break a sword, you need that force to happen in a very small time frame otherwise the metal just bends.
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Post by ineffableone on Jan 15, 2013 17:23:31 GMT
I think it was great you posted your experiences with us here, and it sucks you had your 1st sword break in shipping and nice to hear Ryan's customer service did you good. As i said in my comment while I feel the 2nd sword is likely over priced for what your getting, it is likely decent and value is in the holders view. If you feel you got a good deal then good. I think as you continue and get more knowledge you will find other companies and likely find you can get similar quality as Ryan for a bit less $. But what is good is you get a decent functional sword to start with. Your 2nd sword does look like it will fit that. Just for future reference you might check companies like Ronin Hanwei Mushashi Hauwei ST-Nihonto and others that have stood up to the reviews of members here. A good place to check what companies are getting good buzz is the review index forum.sword-buyers-guide.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=13315Speaking of reviews, I hope you consider posting up a review of your 2nd Ryan sword. The company does come up quite often and it would be good to have a review for reference in the index for others. Something I suggest to new folks also, a good way to get a chance to try out different styles and geometries at lower than retail prices, is check the Classifieds section forum.sword-buyers-guide.com/viewforum.php?f=4 you can find some great deals on used swords there, and get a chance to try out swords for less than it would cost to buy them new. This can really help you gain experience with different swords and sword companies. Plus you can also end up posting swords you don't want to keep up on there to find them a good home and recoup some of the money you put in them so you can buy another sword. PS, I am glad to see the mods cleaned up your thread.
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Post by matthewmiller on Jan 16, 2013 1:18:16 GMT
To start out that really sucks about your first sword, especially just before Christmas. I think the best choice for swords has to come from the question of what do I want to use it for. In my case I have competed with a katana in forms for martial arts for about 5 years now. Finally I decided I wanted to learn how to cut with a katana. I can't afford 1,000 plus dollars for a sword that I may break so my choices were limited. Personally I went with the Cheness Tenchi and so far love it. Keep in mind the reviews for this sword are right on. The fittings are mediocre and fit fairly well. However the blade is very nice and cuts like a dream at least to me. Read reviews of swords you are considering buying it will help you a great deal. Matthew Miller
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Marc
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Post by Marc on Jan 18, 2013 13:47:06 GMT
Nobody pointed out the strange lamination construction seen on the last pics? It seems that one side is made of "hard" steel and the other with "soft" steel. Maybe that explain why the blade snaped like that.
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Post by chrisperoni on Jan 19, 2013 16:34:50 GMT
+1 to this. I was thinking the same thing. It looks like it's not just one side, but sort of the back quarter- which is to me even more random and thus not good. I'm going to see if Dan Davis or another of the veteran smiths can shed some light on what we are seeing.
Also- Mirko,
I must point out something about your comments;
-but how could you know what would make that sword break if you have no experience with swords? I do not mean to be rude, just straighforward. The point is something is wrong with how that first sword was made so yes it could break in ways you might never expect. There's no need to feel defensive as no one is taking a shot at you; we are just trying to help out with knowledge we've gained over time. In time you'll get to know a lot more too. No one intends to offend but why argue when you just don't know?
As to buying from Ryan Swords it's good that their customer service is prompt-- they need to service customers a lot because they sell such a mixed bag of untrustworthy products. I really think Ryan Sword buys all the swords that other vendors turn down (along with old stock that is being sold at discount to move it out). Meaning Ryan Sword imho sells the sub standard stock, mismade junk, qc fails etc. It explains a lot of why their stuff is all over the place. But that's just my guess.
It would be really great if you could post a couple of pics of either side of the break - close ups with detail would be cool.
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Post by lamebmx on Jan 19, 2013 23:45:53 GMT
Another thing, the darker spot could be oxidation that formed in a crack in the blade, the lighter portion would be the freshly broken part. Close ups would be great, macro setting or shoot a pic through a magnifying glass.
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Post by stickem on Jan 20, 2013 0:35:23 GMT
According to the original listing, the Ryansword blade you got was supposed to be laminated, such that in cross section it looked like this: Seems they got the wrong steel in the wrong place or something... looks like a mess and certainly wasn't designed to look as asymmetric in cross section as what you see in the last pic of your broken sword Methinks Chris may be right on with the take this sword failed QC originally somewhere and Ryansword is selling it cheap as a result.
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Post by chrisperoni on Jan 20, 2013 2:56:26 GMT
is it even laminated? wouldn't we be able to see the differing steels in the cross section?
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Post by stickem on Jan 20, 2013 13:05:20 GMT
Chris ~ Here is a cross section of nihonto for reference: legacyswords.com/nihontoCS/crosssections.htmIn these nihonto, the area at the ha appears darker, indicating the higher-carbon, harder steel is at this edge area. On the other hand, as you know, in the Ryansword, the coloration of the steels is asymmetric, with the dark region being on one side and nowhere near the ha :? Dunno if this represents an oxidation of the steel as Lamebmx suggests (good thought, BTW) or some lamination screw up in which the steels are placed randomly. Can't tell what it actually looks like from Mirko's pics, but you'd think the grain of that Forge Folded stuff should be visible on both sides of the blade, otherwise you could see the lamination failed from the outside. My best guess is the lamination technique they used is complete cr@p :cry: Could be a screw up in the heat treatment or crummy steel was used to start with as well. Probably take someone smarter than me to figure out exactly what happened... I'd disassemble the sword so we can see what the blade looks like on both sides with the habaki off, and take some close up pics as suggested... One thing which still concerns me: Mirko got a replacement sword in which the lamination technique is more complex, like so: in which there are 5 different sections instead of just 3. Mirko ~ I get that often you get what you pay for when it comes to swords, but in this case I dunno if I'd trust Ryanswords to do something seemingly more difficult than the one that arrived FUBARed. Please don't take this observation the wrong way. When I first got here, I had just bought a forge-folded, damascus-looking grain sword from another eBay vendor here: www.handmadesword.com/368.htmlTurns out when I asked for opinions here as you did, folks pointed out I could get more for my $. So I sent it back and got a refund. Glad I listened to folks who know better than I do about such things... Months later, I have some appreciation for discerning the good from the bad. It hurt my ego a bit in the beginning to realize I didn't have an eye for what mattered with katana, but I did follow SBG folks advice, and gratefully, now I own something better. You can trust the folks here to have your best interests at heart... but we all know what happens when someone gets settled on the idea they like a specific sword or forge It happens. No worries. I 2nd Ineffable's advice to go with an entry-level sword from someone like Hanwei, Dynasty Forge, Ronin, , or KC. I've bought scratch'n'dent or demo models from all of the above, and been able to save some $ while learning what is what. I also 2nd the advice to check the classifieds here for bargains, which I have done as well. Some of these have been better buys than others for me, but the outlay of $ was a much smaller investment than what it would have been if I'd bought 'em new... Oh, and run like hell from Ryanswords. If this broken sword-like-object wasn't enough to learn ya now, well ... you'll understand why later, trust me
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Post by chrisperoni on Jan 20, 2013 16:10:07 GMT
well Dan got back to me last night and gave me the okay to post his message here.
I did also link to the sale page (showing the material etc.) of the sword but as Dan mentioned, he would want the close up pics before any further evaluation.
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Post by stickem on Jan 20, 2013 19:22:28 GMT
Thanks for taking the time to find somebody smarter than me to figure this out :lol: +1 to the karma
What Dan's saying makes sense to me, in that what appears to be a mistake in the lamination technique actually could be the result of two breaks in the steel, one during heat treatment and the other during shipping, similar to what Lamebmx was describing.
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