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Post by oolong dao on Jan 3, 2013 9:24:24 GMT
which is better in a SHTF situation. in which one must hunt, defend yourself, walk long distance, and acquire more ammunition.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jan 3, 2013 10:07:47 GMT
Hands down the Scar-17, and you don't really have to be a shooter to grasp why; just gotta understand logistics. The KSG is a pound lighter, it's true, but you have to consider more than just that. It's a difficult beast to load in a hurry, that much can be seen watching clips of it in action, and it has a manual selector that must be flipped to switch tubes, which is in an awkward position and I've seen videos where operators have tied string to it to manipulate it easier. True, 14 + 1 is impressive for a shotgun, but shotgun shells are large and bulky and buckshot diminishes in range very quickly (I think it spreads something like 1" per 10 yards past 5-10 yards or so, but I'm not 100% sure, so if someone knows the exact numbers, please correct me), so you'd have to carry slugs for anything past that range and they're heavier than buckshot. Shells are also carried loose, at best carried in a bandolier, at worst stuffed in a pocket.
The Scar-17 (and personally, if I was going to choose one of the two, I'd go with the 16 myself, since it's about a half pound lighter, carries more rounds, and ammo is more plentiful from what I've seen), on the other hand, can be used for just about any range, accepts 20 round magazines that can be changed in a flash, accepts inexpensive Pmags (assuming you can find any at the moment), and there's likely other things a non-shooter like myself missed that others can point out.
As for getting more ammo, I think the KSG might have the advantage considering how prevalent 12ga is, but if it came right down to it, handloading is likely much easier with .308 than it is with 12ga, which I'm not even sure you can reload, considering how little brass there is to a shotgun shell.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Jan 3, 2013 22:24:25 GMT
If you're going to spend that kind of money I'd go with the SCAR. From many reports I've read about the KSG they still have some issues with QC and of course there's the other issues that were already discussed. All of that aside the KSG is lighter empty but when loaded it'll be heavier than the SCAR loaded AND have less on board ammunition as well as lacking the ability to accept box magazines.
Really I don't like the KSG - it was made and geared toward people who played too many video games and as such isn't nearly as effective or useful as say a Saiga-12. The Saiga-12 is a semi-auto shotgun based on the AK action. This gives it the reputation of being almost impossible to jam and takes even 3 1/2" magnum shells. You can purchase box magazines for it and that makes reloading as easy and quick as any box mag fed rifle (like the SCAR). I've seen 12 round mags available for the Saiga-12 too so that makes its actual ammunition capacity almost as high as the KSG but I'd consider it to be better because of the fact you don't have to switch between mags to get the full capacity of the gun AND when empty all you do is push the release lever, rock the empty mag out and rock/lock a new full mag vs. having to manually load 14 cartridges.
So between the two options you mentioned I'd go with the SCAR for its proven reliability and use under combat situations. The KSG has yet to see ANY real action of any sort and is hardly considered to be a proven platform. If you MUST buy a tactical shotgun the Saiga-12 has been fielded by various military and law enforcement agencies and is built off a proven platform - the AK platform.
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Post by oolong dao on Jan 4, 2013 13:42:38 GMT
there is a similar gun to the KSG called the UTS 15, what about that?
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jan 4, 2013 16:07:03 GMT
While what I've seen of the UTS-15 makes me like it quite a bit more than the KSG; primarily the fact that it alternates between each mag tube with every shot, meaning no selector to fiddle with every time you run a tube dry. That said, even if there was, the selector's up top (just leave it centered), and so are the loading ports. Even still, if I had to go with a shotgun, I'd take Sam's suggestion of the Saiga; really, a shotgun that accepts detachable box magazines is pretty hard to beat if you must have a shotgun for a SHTF scenario.
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Post by oolong dao on Jan 4, 2013 17:23:56 GMT
i have to ask, what makes the box magazine better than 2 tubes?
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Post by DavidW on Jan 4, 2013 21:28:13 GMT
Once you run out of shells from the 2 tubes, you have to spend around at least half a minute to reload, whereas with a box magazine, all you do is remove the magazine and put in a fresh one. Much faster reload, and also more comfortable as thumbing in shell after shell gets a bit abrasive on the fingers from my experience.
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Post by Jack Tar on Jan 4, 2013 21:49:12 GMT
It doesn't take that long to reload a tube magazine if you use speedloaders. They're model specific and I doubt anyone make them for the kel-tec. They're easy enough to find if you use a Mossberg 590 or a Remington 870. Like with revolver speedloaders with practice you can reload your shotgun in just a few of seconds.
I'd recommend what the US military uses. For decades it's been the Mossberg 590 (don't get the civilian model with the plastic parts like the safety) or 870. The Marines have converted to the Benelli M4 if you desire a semi-auto.
There are NFA-controlled underbarrel shotguns. You can get them if you do the paperwork and pay the $200 tax. Most are totally impractical but Ten-X makes the TX-12 which is no more impractical than mounting a grenade launcher on the bottom rail.
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Post by Jack Tar on Jan 4, 2013 21:56:46 GMT
Ten-x TX-12: It's a single shot; the trigger group drops down so you can place a round in the chamber. Your primary weapon is never taken out of action and it's a lot more practical then mounting a cut-down pump gun (yes, there are people who make those too) which I suppose is fine if you have someone else to haul it around. But again, It's classified as an "Any Other Weapon" so if you want one and you're not a LEO you have to do the paperwork, and some states are more amenable to letting you have these kinds of things than others. But it's possible to have your SCAR-17 and shotgun, too.
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slav
Senior Forumite
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Post by slav on Jan 5, 2013 6:51:57 GMT
Is this even a serious contest? SCAR.
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Post by KentsOkay on Jan 5, 2013 8:27:13 GMT
Brother, be glad you asked here and not on a proper gun forum, they would have your hide. Those guns aren't even in the same book, let alone the same page, on function and use. The KSG is an awesome range toy, but the jury is still out on whether it's a duty weapon. So, let's take a known duty-grade weapon of the same idea (mossington 5870 pump action 12 g) and compare: Any reliable semi-auto centerfire rifle will do everything better than a shotgun (especially in a combative situation) except... Shoot birds. If you plan on living on pigeons and being hopelessly outgunned, get the KSG. Heck, better idea: Get a Remingberg 8500 shotgun with a 18" barrel, mag extension, plus a good bird barrel, AND an AR-15 from a quality manufacturer AND have ammo for both PLUS maybe even be able to afford some training. Proven performers, no inbetween crossover wannabes. If you are absolutely stuck on 308, maybe a PTR-91/G3 clone and the shotgun. Get the tool for the job, and learn how to use it. Now, how about an actual proper comparison? Kel-Tec RFB vs FNH SCAR 17: VS ~Both are fantasy guns that are rare and expensive, ~Both are super futuristic high speed low drag supertactical operator intended designs ~Both are 30 caliber semi-auto rifles My pick is the RFB. First off, it IS the DMR from Halo, hands down, not a doubt. It is a fantastic weapon, and I've had the pleasure of actually firing one after years of reading up on it. It is not overhyped. This is a gun for space marines, star troopers, and anyone wanting to put big holes in things rapidly with INCREDIBLE amounts of control in a compact, sturdy weapon with mag changes that matches or beats (IMHO) the speed and ease as on an AR pattern rifle. The SCAR is everything that the FN FAL, HK-91/G3/CETME, and M14/M1A already are, except it comes from the factory already in polymer clothes, and you can change the barrel quickly. Big whoop. Give me the space gun that is so compact I can have an 18" barrel and still be the same length as the small SCAR without having to give the .gov $200 for a tax stamp. Plus, if I but-strike a big stinky Ork in the face with a RFB, he's going down. If I but-strike him with the SCAR, the Ugg - boot styled folding and collapsing stock will probably fold or collapse.
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Post by oolong dao on Jan 5, 2013 11:01:22 GMT
what non 308 rifle would be better? Someone on this site once posted a CX4 with a wierd Fal bayonet i suppose that and a PX4 would be smart if i didn't have to do more than defend myself.
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Sam H
Member
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Post by Sam H on Jan 5, 2013 14:54:51 GMT
An AR-15 of any make or an AK variant.
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Post by oolong dao on Jan 5, 2013 15:13:11 GMT
When i researched them i came across issues with the both of them. the ar15 requires regular cleaning at the end of the day for a reason only described to me as "it poops where it eats" and suffers from bad quality control. the AK suffered from accuracy issues and generally being foreign, and as the grandson of a steel worker who fought in WW2 that is unacceptable.
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Post by KentsOkay on Jan 5, 2013 16:21:47 GMT
And the SCAR isn't foreign? Buy a M1A and bald eagles will sing their praises with every trigger pull.
There are a LOT of misconceptions and half truths that get told to people new to guns, and they are very damaging. Lets put it this way, for the last half of the 20th century the most common rifles in military service where the AK, the M16/M4, and the FAL. The most powerful nations on earth wouldn't have used these weapons to maintain their positions of power if they wheren't good enough. You do not have to clean a quality AR every time you pull the trigger (look up Filthy 14 on the googles), and an AK can in fact be aimed at targets up to a few hundred yards, and it will hit them (especially the more modern AK-74 firing the more modern 5.45x39 round).
The AR has the AK stomped on options, aftermarket add ons, and availability here in the US. Since this is in fact a forum dedicated to reviews on swords, I would suggest heading over to a website a bit more familiar with the subject material of firearms. Zombiehunters.org sports an excellent community of experts on everything from first aid to foraging, and firearms. A very well maintained forum, be sure to review the rules before posting.
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Sam H
Member
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Post by Sam H on Jan 5, 2013 16:51:12 GMT
I'll second what Kent said regarding ARs and AKs.
I'll add that I personally have put thousands of rounds through ARs without cleaning and they haven't jammed up on me yet. I have one AR that has about 8000 rounds through the pipe without cleaning yet and it just keeps on shooting whenever I pull the trigger. As for quality control - just make sure you're getting a product from a reputable manufacturer and the issues of QC will be close to non-existent.
AKs may be "foreign" but they can also be purchased "American Made". Aresenal makes some good AK variants that are mostly American made and there are other custom manufacturers that do the same. Aside from the whole foreign thing if I needed a rifle that would function reliably in ANY environmental condition with little to no maintenance I'd go for the AK.
As the son of a Vietnam War combatant fighting on the side of the good guys (USA), I don't have a problem using guns that were built based on designs of guns that were used by the enemy to possibly kill my father.
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slav
Senior Forumite
Posts: 818
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Post by slav on Jan 5, 2013 21:36:17 GMT
Dude, just go buy Call of Duty and you'll get to shoot them all.
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Post by oolong dao on Jan 5, 2013 22:42:27 GMT
The only thing i know about COD is tha 10 year olds play it. That fact makes it inheirently and infinitly less interesting than a SOCO & Sprite. further more I've decided on COLT AR 15 and M1911 chambered in 5.56 & 9mm, with a imacasa panga. All of which will be set in walnut.
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Jan 5, 2013 22:46:07 GMT
LOL!!!
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slav
Senior Forumite
Posts: 818
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Post by slav on Jan 5, 2013 23:05:38 GMT
Be prepared to pay more for that Colt AR than they have ever been worth. That is, if you can find one. Try a gun show. That's the only place I've seen them in the last month.
Why not go for a 1911 in .45 ACP? That's the cartridge it was designed for, and will pack a MEAN punch. Hand cannon.
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